#45 The Invisibility of Stuttering with Dr. Hope Gerlach
“...stuttering adds value into the world...”
BIO
Hope Gerlach, Ph.D., CCC-SLP is an assistant professor at Western Michigan University. Her research focuses on identifying and reducing disparities in quality of life between people who stutter and typically fluent speakers. Currently, she is studying the role of stigma and identity constructs in psychological distress among adults who stutter. She has been actively involved in support organizations for people who stutter and has worked as a speech-language pathologist at several summer camps for youth who stutter.
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00-8:40: Introductions, bringing research to life
8:40- 14:00: "Neurological glitch", invisible disabilities and losing control when you are about to stutter
14:00-19:07: measuring stuttering, the impact of it being invisible
19:26-28:29: Charles Van Riper legacy at Western Michigan University and the "stuttering tax"
28:29-33:09: More on the stuttering tax and managing the stigma
34:00- 42:40: concealment and severity
42:55- 55:16: Vanderbilt research (explicit and implicit biases from SLPs about stuttering), maybe a hardwired way of thinking that fluent speech is better
55:42- End: being an ally, invisible component, not everyone is struggling, closing remarks
RESOURCES
The value in connecting with other people who stutter
Stuttering and Invisibility article for kids
MORE QUOTES
“ If someone wants me to use that word and they stutter, I'm gonna honor their request because it's about honoring the person who has the experience.” - Dr. Hope Gerlach
“We can help people who stutter feel like they have more choices when they experience discrimination” - Dr. Hope Gerlach
TRANSCRIPTION:
#45 Invisibility of Stuttering with Dr. Hope Gerlach
[00:00:00] Uri Schneider: Here we are. Good morning. I have always wanted to be in Kalamazoo ever since I was a kid. It's like the coolest name of a city, don't you think? I agree. So, I agree. So here we are and this is gonna be an amazing conversation and I'm just gonna give a quick intro to grab your attention for those of you that are with us.
Thank you. Uh, drop your likes, drop your comments, share this because this is a conversation worth hearing. I think that, um, one, one of the things I'm super excited about is, um, connecting people, right? And also creating a bridge between the world of research and the world of real life. And I think that thankfully people like Dr.
Gerlach and others that I've been able to bring on and will be bringing on, and there's some really exciting guests coming up as well. You know, they really are the next generation of research in a way that's far more connected, far more relevant, far more contemporary, and just really tuned in to what's important for us to study so that we can learn from it.
To create better understanding of ourselves, to create better understanding of others, um, and ultimately really make a difference in real life for people who are looking at transcend stuttering. So, you're gonna learn about all sorts of things that are, I think, far more intriguing and far more relevant than you think of when you think of the word research.
So, I, I invite everybody to kind of fasten your seat belts. If you're driving or whatever you're doing, drop your comments, your likes. We'll try to integrate it. And it's just a great privilege to be here and share this time with you. I already see Derek Daniels dropping in early. Um, Michiganders, you guys are amazing.
I have had more phone calls with colleagues in Michigan this week than I knew existed. It's like literally got a concentration of some of the greatest stuttering research and activity in the country. So with that, I will stop and just say my name's r Schneider. Welcome to the Transcending Stuttering podcast.
And it's a great honor to have my friend and colleague, Dr. Hope Gerlach.
[00:01:53] Hope Gerlach: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I am. Really excited to be here. And, um, yeah, thanks to anybody who's tuned in. I, I don't think I'm gonna be able to manage looking at the comments. And you, Yuri, so I'm gonna have to, you could help me with that.
I love that. But, um, really excited to be here, honestly, a little nervous. Um, this is one of my first times doing a more informal chat. Um, and so that's new for me and I'm actually really excited to kind of explore how we can talk about stuttering in ways that aren't so constrained and that don't feel so much always like a research presentation.
And I think part of doing good research is translating it to people who would benefit from learning about it. And so I'm, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:37] Uri Schneider: Well, thanks for, thanks for taking the chance. And that's the language we're using. We learned from Eric Raj, our other colleague. Um, we were talking in the group, in the cohort where we're training professionals.
And we talked about before we ask people who stutter or anyone else to kind of take a risk if we're a parent or a teacher or a clinician. Before we ask someone else to take a risk, we gotta be ready to step out of our comfort zone. So hope I'm nervous, like you make me nervous because you're so prolific and active on the research front, but at the same time, you know, we just jive together.
And I'm glad that you are stepping outta your comfort zone because in doing so, hopefully it helps you, but it's also gonna reach people that otherwise are not attending so many of your presentations. And.
[00:03:19] Hope Gerlach: Yeah, and
[00:03:20] Uri Schneider: research symposiums and stuff, so this is great. So I'll let you just share like, what do you think people don't know about you that you would like them to know?
Like what brought you to this? And hope behind the scenes, not the, the sterile bio they could read in the description.
[00:03:34] Hope Gerlach: Ooh, that's so interesting. Hmm. Um, something that we've chatted about before is, um, what really got me interested in stuttering is, um, you know, there's things about stuttering that are so unique to stuttering, and I do think it's a, um, injustice to compare stuttering to other experiences and identities.
Um, but there are, when people describe the experience of stuttering, even though I don't, um, experience stuttering myself, I feel like I can really relate to some of the things that they talk about just in my broader struggles with being human. Um, you know, like, um, when I was a grad student, I went to, um, or I facilitated my first adult stuttering group.
Um, and that really was what got me hooked on stuttering. Um, I was listening to them tell their stories about. You know, living with stuttering and, um, specifically the ways that they had tried to hide stuttering, um, and or maybe tried to, um, just control what other people think about them. That idea of trying to manage what other people might think about you.
And I was like, oh, you know, I don't stutter, but that makes so much sense to me. Um, and I thought, felt like when I was, some of my peers, grad students who were in the group, I felt like they didn't really like, resonate with that idea. Um, like, why would someone swap words? Like why would someone alter their day based off if they're gonna stutter?
But for me, I was like, oh, I can just totally understand why a person might do that and why it, why it feels kind of like a burden to have, to manage what other people might think about you. And like an example is, um, I'm a first generation college student. Um, and I remember when I first went to college, I was like, this again.
Apples to oranges compared to stuttering. Um, but I remember when I went to college, I was like, is this something I tell people or is this something I keep to myself? Is this something like, what if they find out, like, what will, what will they think of me? Um, and I feel like sometimes people who stutter, again, not all people who stutter, but some people who stutter have similar, um, thoughts just about like, how much of this is okay to share?
Like, how open should I be? Or is this something that I should try to keep to myself? And so, um, that, those experiences really brought me to my interests, which is in the invisible aspects of stuttering. Um, and there's lots of ways that stuttering is invisible. Um, I'm not sure if you know, if anything stands out to you, you or I can, you know, keep going.
[00:06:10] Uri Schneider: Well, I think most people think of, uh, what's not invisible so often I was, I was sharing with our cohort, we had an office hours earlier this morning. And we're talking about the fact that when I get calls from people that come from English backgrounds or South African backgrounds, they're like, oh, don't worry.
No, it's not a stammer. It's more of like a small stutter. And if it's people from North America, they're like, uh oh no, it's not a stutter. It's, it's more of a small stammer. Yeah. And the semantics of it are really related to which word is stigmatic. Right. Which word has that stigma That's more fearful,
[00:06:41] Hope Gerlach: you know,
[00:06:41] Uri Schneider: packed with fear and mm-hmm.
And all kinds of emotions. But, um, I think most people think of stacking up. When they're thinking of a loved one or someone else, they stack it up against some paradigm of like a very visible stutter. Hmm. And I think the whole idea of the invisible experience or beneath the iceberg may not be familiar to others.
Mm-hmm.
[00:07:02] Hope Gerlach: So, leaning
[00:07:02] Uri Schneider: on Joseph Sheehan, who has this idea of the iceberg, most people are familiar and it could be applied to many different areas, but there's the experience that can be seen, there can be the experience that can be heard, it can be the experience that's visible, measurable. Then there's the experience that's beneath the surface can also be measured, but it's more of the hidden experience.
It's the intrinsic, you know, intrapersonal, um, inner space kind of experience that can maybe the feelings and the thoughts and all kinds of effort that goes around that. So I think just to, to preface what you're talking about is that stuttering is packed with both sides and some people who stutter have that overt, visible audible aspect in a very significant way.
Others keep it under wraps or it's very situational. So I'd love to give you license, just take it where you want to go. 'cause you've invested so much in this whole idea of invisibility and as it relates to stuttering, but also borrowing from and leaning on. And I think as speech language pathologist, it's so helpful for us to get out of our silo.
Mm-hmm. Of speech language pathology and benefit from research knowledge and also trends and interventions and experiences that can be helpful that. Other fields. So I know that you borrow a lot from that. So I'd love for you to share on, you know, disability and new ways of thinking about that and how that sheds light into your research and into the way we look at stuttering.
[00:08:18] Hope Gerlach: Yeah, that sounds good. There's so much, so much to talk about there. Um, I think I wanna start just by again, talking about the ways that stuttering is invisible. Like, people who are unfamiliar with stuttering, when they hear stuttering or think of the word stuttering, like they think of the disfluencies that you hear.
Um, and again, Joseph Chian really. Laid out, and, you know, many people have elaborated on his work, including Nina G. Um, that what you hear, see, observe is just a small part of what stuttering is and the experience of stuttering. So typically when we talk about what's below the iceberg below the water line, the parts of stuttering you can't see.
Um, you know, what we're usually talking about is, you know, um, negative thoughts and feelings maybe, or sometimes also positive thoughts and feelings. It's not always a negative experience. Stuttering is not always negative. And, um, there's so many people who are doing great work about what the positive, um, parts of living with stuttering might be.
But there are these feelings, um, and thoughts that can, can be un kind of under the surface. Um, but I really think that when we get at the root of stuttering itself, again, I think most people. Think of the root of stuttering as the disfluencies. You know, that's the root of stuttering. Like that's the primary impairment is the disfluencies.
But you know, um. Perkins in the 1970s was a researcher and some contemporary researchers like Seth Ner and Scott Yaris at, at Michigan State and Eric Jackson at NYU. They're really providing strong evidence that the disfluencies are a symptom of stuttering, and that the real impairment of stuttering itself is something that cannot be seen.
It's this, um, invisible, um, I've used the word glit. I've, I haven't used the word glitch too much, but I've heard the word kind of glitch. A neurological kind of misfire that sometimes results in disfluencies and sometimes doesn't. And sometimes that means that someone can exper, can experience a moment of stuttering without us hearing it.
And that can happen because people usually anticipate, not always, but at least sometimes anticipate. Yeah.
[00:10:34] Uri Schneider: Bring us into that. If you could like add some detail to that. Bring it from the abstraction to what would be an invisible experience of stuttering for a person who stutters that someone might not even be keen to identifying as such, or understanding what you're meaning in terms of it being this, the external stutter is merely a symptom of this experience.
So what would an example of that manifestation be?
[00:10:54] Hope Gerlach: Yeah, that's a great idea. Um, and so when Eric Jackson was at the University of Iowa for, uh, his postdoc, I learned a lot about anticipation from him. Um, and anticipation gets at your question, so that's where I'm kind of starting. Um, and through my work with him, like, you know.
I learned from him that anticipation can be kind of this long-term anticipation. So like, I know I'm gonna stutter when I have to introduce myself in class next week. So it can be kind of this like cognitive, it can be a fear, it can be this looming, um, you know, idea of just knowing how your speech and different social contexts.
Um, but stuttering or stuttering anticipation can also be very momentary. Um, like micro minuscule. So mid-sentence, you know, you're, you get this, uh, proprio sense of, uh, sense that you, it's hard to explain, but you get this feeling that, you know, you're going to stutter on this upcoming word. And I think, you know, Seth Ner and Scott Ya's work, um, is showing that.
That sense that, and, and Eric Jackson might say that that sense that you're about to stutter already indicates that something has gone off. Some, something has gone off that typically fluent speakers don't experience, and then what happens from there, it can manifest in different ways so that person can experience that feeling of a loss of control.
That's what Seth Tisher and Scott Yaris are really, um, illustrating in their work that that's the primary impairment of stuttering and then whether or not that manifests as Disfluency. Varies because the person can just choose to stop their sentence and to never let that impending. These things happen in milliseconds, that word manifest, or they can swap words and then never manifest.
We never see it. And, but it was still experienced by the speaker and so Wow. They're really, yeah. Working on shifting how we define stuttering. Um, not so much based off what listeners hear, which is what a lot of the work has historically been focused on, but actually what speakers experience because of that invisible kind of aspect of it.
[00:13:07] Uri Schneider: You know, as we were getting on the Zoom call, I was just finishing a phone call from a 29-year-old woman and she was telling me, well, I'm calling for myself and I stutter, even though you're not gonna hear me stutter now, but you know, I stutter, I promise. Mm-hmm. And um, so that's situational difference.
But the fact that the person who stutters this young woman, Jane, let's say, you know, she anticipates. The fact that, like you said, that sixth sense, that premonition, that anticipation. And it's not because she's an anxious person, right? It's like it's part of the stuttering experience as you grow up. And again, everything we're talking about, I think I just wanna couch as we're talking about older kids, teens than adults, we're not talking about preschool children.
I just wanna make that distinction for listeners. Um, but the experience becomes one that's not only the physical scene and audible, but the stuttering experience is like before you even are going to that party and you start to have that anticipation about it, right? Mm-hmm. You wanna, you wanna just share a little bit more about that because I think most people this is like, could be mind blowing.
Mm-hmm. If you're a person who stutters or you're a parent measuring stuttering or the impact of stuttering or the rationale to do something about it or not do something about it isn't measured by how many times you hear an interruption in fluid speech.
[00:14:21] Hope Gerlach: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:21] Uri Schneider: Um, yeah. Just shed some more light on that and, and then you know, all your other work on and invisibility.
I think it's just fascinating and totally timely.
[00:14:29] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the impact of stuttering can be invisible as well. Like I think it's just like easy to assume that people who stutter are impacted when they stutter. But so often that's not the case. Like, especially there's a lot of people who stutter, who have done the, done the work of being okay with stuttering, um, being proud maybe of stuttering, and when they stutter, that's not the impact.
Um, the impact can be more invisible. So for example, the impact can be mid-sentence. Swapping your words and kind of having to be on, have different tracks of what you're saying. Um, because when you anticipate a word, you might need to switch it. That's an impact. Like in the moment, an impact that's invisible might be never approaching that girl that you really wanna talk to and you really wanna make a connection with.
Um, so it can be, you know, situations that you don't allow yourself to enter. Um, and it can be these broader stories that you hear when you interact with, again, some people who stutter. There are lots of people who stutter, who. Have very minimal impact. And so there's, there's so much in like, individuality in terms of what people experience, but, um, a story that kind of sticks out with me about the invisible impact and there can be kind of trickle down effects of, um, the invisibility of stuttering or the kind of just managing, trying to manage stuttering.
Um, so when, back in the old days when you had to go to the gas station and you actually had to go in to pay, you'd have to go up and you'd have to say what pump you were at and you had to pay. Either before or after you pumped the, you pumped your gas. Well, I've heard like a story from a person who stutters say that they left their house in the morning and they saw that the gas station was really busy, but pump four was open, but they knew they were gonna stutter on the word four.
And so they didn't wanna go to that pump and have to go in and stutter on the word. So they decided they were gonna wait in line at a different pump so that they wouldn't have to be in that uncomfortable situation. And then they ended up being late to work. And all of that trickles back to trying to manage or just trying to under, like, figure out what vulnerability you wanna allow yourself to experience and if you wanna allow yourself to be, to experience this discomfort.
And so, um, there's just a lot of invisible impact. I think sometimes there's potential for invi, um, invisible impact.
[00:17:02] Uri Schneider: So I think, I think that very much drives right this different way of looking at the research more than just looking at, in addition to those of our colleagues that are looking at neuroimaging, that was, you know, related to the Neuromotor speech motor system.
But it, I know that your research is looking at things at another angle that emerges from this kind of understanding. And I also know you're kind of the continuation of a legacy over there at Western Michigan, aren't you? Yeah. With, uh, Charles Van Riper, one of the founding fathers of our field and of stuttering research.
So maybe you just wanna share on the evolution of kind of how his work mm-hmm. Has set the stage. And of course, Tricia has set the stage as your, you know, one of your teachers and mentors and art teachers and mentors. Um, how that's influenced your research and how, also how your research. Has evolved from some of the earlier research mm-hmm.
And changed and developed. Mm-hmm. And then maybe we can also talk about how that comes down to practical differences about how we assess mm-hmm. And maybe do things right. Yeah. But maybe just talking, I know that it was important to you to just give tribute to some of our teachers and mentors and also the founding fathers that we all stand on the shoulders of their great work.
Exactly.
[00:18:04] Hope Gerlach: Exactly. I could rattle off so many people that have just been super influential in the way I think about stuttering. Um, but when this job was open at Western Michigan, I wanted it so bad to be frank. I was, I would've
[00:18:17] Uri Schneider: taken it, I would've taken it just to be in Kalamazoo. But, um, that's a, that added.
Added value. Yeah,
[00:18:24] Hope Gerlach: yeah, yeah. Um, but I wanted to be here because, um, so the field of speech pathology started at the University of Iowa in the United States, um, which is where I did my PhD. And a lot of people don't know that the field of speech pathology was really founded by a lot of men who stutter, um, Wendell Johnson, Charles Van Riper.
Um, there was a good cohort of them who were among the first speech pathologists. And how cool is that, um, that they, that stuttering played such a central role. Um, eventually Charles Van Riper broke off from Iowa and came to Western Michigan and started the program here. Um, and what I respect so much about Charles Van Riper and what has shaped my, you know, experience or my interest so much, um, is that, you know, he really focused on stuttering more easily.
So. And, and that really is in contrast to speaking more fluently historically. It's like you can do one thing or the other. And I don't really buy into that anyway. That you're either
[00:19:24] Uri Schneider: Let's wait, wait, wait. I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves there some people that know exactly what you're talking about.
Mm-hmm. And some people I think would appreciate if you could unpack that a little bit. Mm-hmm. In terms of, that relates to the evolution, right?
[00:19:35] Hope Gerlach: Mm-hmm. Of
[00:19:36] Uri Schneider: how stuttering and thinking and also treatment for stuttering
[00:19:39] Hope Gerlach: mm-hmm.
[00:19:39] Uri Schneider: Has evolved. So could you just unpack that? 'cause that's a very important, I think, paradigm to understand like where things started mm-hmm.
Where they've gone and where they're going. Mm-hmm. So if you wouldn't mind,
[00:19:48] Hope Gerlach: yeah. So historically and even like filtering into contemporary practice, we can get this kind of, um, there were really kind of original. Originally two ways of thinking about what to do about stuttering, um, stuttering modification, which is what, um, Charles Van Riper is really known for, and his way of thinking was stutter more easily.
So the goal isn't to get rid of stuttering. The goal isn't to speak fluently. The goal is to stutter more easily. And if fluency comes as a byproduct of that, that's great, but it's not the primary goal. The primary goal is to talk more and to talk more easily. And then in contrast to that, the other kind of way of thinking about it is to speak more fluently, and that's called fluency shaping.
Um, and so, um, most of those kind of recommendations or the rationale for any strategies someone might use are focused on speaking more fluently rather than. You know, allowing, keeping the stuttering but keeping it easier. Um, and what I really like about stuttering modification is that I think that it centers the person who stutters more because it's.
The outcomes and the goals are focused on their experience with speaking. So like I, the, if I'm successful, my talking will feel easier rather than if you're on more of a fluency shaping track. Like sometimes that can be experienced as my talking will sound more fluent, which kind of centers the listener.
Um, so it's not that I don't like to ever, I, I do clinical practice as well and I don't, I don't like to forbid fluency, like we can't tell people what to want. Like, and that they need to want stuttering to be okay. That's a personal journey. Um, but I do think anytime we can just recenter it on the person who stutters and their experience, what their speech feels like, rather than what it sounds like, um, can be really healthy.
So, um. To bring that back. Um, I just have, you know, been really inspired by Charles, Jen Riper and many other people who really center the person who stutters more so than, um, the listener. And so I'm interested in what the experience of stuttering feels like and is like in day-to-day life. Um, so Ty that so bring us
[00:22:10] Uri Schneider: into Yeah, yeah.
Tie that into like how your exactly. How your research has evolved. 'cause some of us have read research or even have an attitude towards the research as being so detached right. And so outdated. And I think you're among a cadre of our colleagues and friends who are totally that on its head and, and doing research that's really groundbreaking, relevant and applicable and so needed.
So maybe if you wanna share, you know, what are some of your, from your dissertation all the way to some of your latest work.
[00:22:38] Hope Gerlach: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate, I appreciate all those things you said. Um, but actually I came up with a word to kind of describe what I'm interested in this morning. So actually thank you for this talk and
[00:22:49] Uri Schneider: hold on.
Everybody, everybody. Hold on. Get your notebooks. Let's see, we got a new word coming out. So we have fluency shaping, study modification, and now we have,
[00:22:57] Hope Gerlach: I don't think, great white
[00:22:57] Uri Schneider: hope. Here we go.
[00:22:58] Hope Gerlach: I don't want to take credit for this word because I'm sure that I, I've definitely heard it in other, um, disability literature.
I don't, and I'm sure I've probably heard it applied to stuttering. Um, but I'm interested in this idea of kind of a stuttering tax. So we talked about like, love it, there are invisible aspects of stuttering. Um, and that there's this kind of like tax associated with stuttering in terms of maybe the effort that requires, that's required to speak or even more closely to, what I'm interested in is, um, the decision making that goes on behind the scenes.
Do I say this work? Totally. To this person, do I tell them I stutter? Um, and so what I'm interested in is this idea of kind of a stuttering tax and more specifically identity management. So my work, yeah, go ahead. I
[00:23:46] Uri Schneider: love it. I love it. I just wanna share, that's why we jive this morning, this morning already, even before we're only nine o'clock.
I've had a couple other meetings I'm sure you have as well. Um, or it's 10 o'clock, uh, at Eastern. At 10 20. I spoke to a guy and I said to him, you know, stuttering tax or stuttering cost or side effects, um, I said to him, the choice you make, you know not to speak in front of the crowd and the benefit that gives you to feel safe, but there's, there's a cost you pay, right?
But the question is, is the benefit outweigh the cost and it's a personal choice. Mm-hmm. And the other side of that is the cost you pay to just keep comfortable, right? Mm-hmm. So on the one hand, you're not paying for the work to get uncomfortable, but on the other hand. You're missing out on some opportunities and that's a tax or that's a cost.
And then of course all these decision making. So I just wanted to share, I love the term stuttering tax. I feel like some of that has definitely struck me through Chris Constantino's work. Mm-hmm. And yours and Naomi Rogers, who we'll be talking to in a few weeks. I love it. And I think for people, and especially for parents and professionals who kind of impose, expect, and want people to simply hook onto whatever they're doing in one situation and extrapolate it to every other situation as if it was just so easy.
It's not so simple. It's like a person who's working on their fitness or their wellbeing. Like some days you wake up and you just don't wanna stick to the diet, to the tea, or you don't wanna go running that morning. Mm-hmm. And the choice you make is a personal choice. It's a situational choice. And there needs to be legitimacy for people who speak and communicate.
We need to give that same right to give that choice whatever they choose at different times and to be what we might look at as inconsistent. Or what sadly is called laziness or not motivated mm-hmm. Might actually be justifiable Assessments of cost, benefit of risk, reward.
[00:25:40] Hope Gerlach: Yes. Of
[00:25:40] Uri Schneider: what's the tax of doing it this way versus it's not worth it or the other way.
Exactly. And I'd love for you to just share so much. I love that term and I love everything about it.
[00:25:49] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. And I think that really, um, matches kind of my approach. So, um, a lot of the research I'm doing is focused on concealment, so the ways that people try to hide or conceal their stuttering. Um, and so these can be things like not talking word switching, not entering a situation all the way to like, pretending to think, um, until they feel like they can say the word dropping a pencil.
So they're trying to buy time. There's so many little subtle ways to hide stuttering. Um. And my research right now is really influenced by work and social psychology, um, about, um, people who hide other things. So again, stuttering is so unique. I think there's nothing like it, and that's what draws me to it.
Um, but there are parts of, of the stuttering experience that somewhat parallel what other people experience as well. And so my work, I'm borrowing from literature on what's called a broader, a broader term of concealable stigmatized identities. So stigmatized, breaking that down means that it's an identity that, you know, may be associated with stereotype prejudice or discrimination, which we know stuttering certainly can be.
Um. And then the concealable part means you can't always see it. And so some examples of other groups of people with concealable stigmatized identities or csis is the short term, um, are people, and this is gonna sound a little weird, you're, and it's totally valid if you're like, really? You're trying to make parallels here?
That's a stretch. Um, but people living with HIV, that's something that you can't see, but something that they have to manage how other people know if people know and how they tell them.
[00:27:37] Uri Schneider: Lemme give you one LU for those of you that might not have just jumped on with gr with hope and might have had a little resistance there.
I just wanna share, you don't have to think of stuttering as, uh. Analogous in in any other way. But the point that's fascinating about stuttering and so unique is its enigmatic nature. The inconsistent presentation of it and everything that hope led up with about 10 minutes ago, talking about the invisible experience being such a core part of it.
Mm-hmm. That it's not only what's visible, but also the fact that it's so situational and shifts from situation to situation. So that's where these analog, we're looking for other things to learn from, to borrow from. Not to say they're the same.
[00:28:16] Hope Gerlach: Mm-hmm. Exactly.
[00:28:16] Uri Schneider: But to just look for things that have that feature of having that kind of enigma or having that stigma that at one point can be revealed against your will.
And at other moments you could conceal in some places it shows up in ways that you wish it wouldn't, and in other places it's not even present, but you still carry it inside of you. Exactly. I just wanted to share, set the stage for these. We're looking for things to learn from in the research and in practice that could inform us.
Right.
[00:28:41] Hope Gerlach: And when I'm talking about the stuttering tax, I'm talking about, again, it can be many things, but I guess I'm talking about the tax of managing the stigma or it's really the potential for stigma because you don't always see stuttering. And that's what makes it so difficult sometimes is you don't know when someone may react in a way that will make you feel bad and you don't know when you're going to stutter.
And so, you know, people have described it as like talking on thin ice, um, living life on the run, just never knowing, not never knowing, but feeling like sometimes you just don't know what to expect because people can't see this part of you. So that's the parallel I'm trying to make, just the invisibility of it.
And so other, you know, so just,
[00:29:23] Uri Schneider: just give you a chance to, why don't you take a, you know, just take a moment to clear your airway. We are a speech language pathologist after all, but as a reference, if you wanna go back to the last episode with Derek Mitchell, he talks almost. The words that came out of hope's mouth.
He says, you know, it was, it was all about escaping and running away. And it was only at the age of 30 that he decided, I don't need to run away. Like, this isn't getting me where I want to go. This isn't working for me anymore. And uh, but the idea of life on the run or living on thin ice, or like, imagine just staying thank you to the bus driver is like this whole decision making.
You know, how's it gonna go? And if I do it, maybe I'll stutter. And if I do stutter, how are they gonna take it? Is it gonna be like what my mom and dad told me that. Hey, they don't mind. Or are, are the kids in the second row gonna laugh at me? And that imagine like everyday activities having such a loaded burden of worry and wonder about what kind of reaction I might get from the world around me.
Right. Is that, is that right? Yes,
[00:30:18] Hope Gerlach: exactly. Is exactly, and and again, this isn't every person who stutters. That's a huge thing I want people to understand. Like, you can never generalize about people who stutter as a group, but there are certainly, like, the concealment is definitely something that people can be seduced to do, right?
Like, it's like, that sounds good. Like maybe not being the one who feels different and this moment feels good to me. Um, and, and this especially,
[00:30:45] Uri Schneider: especially, and I'll just add to that. Yeah. And you're, you're the expert on this, but I would say like, I'm an orthodox shoe. I wear a yamaka. If I take my yamaka off, suddenly I have white male privilege.
I can just remove that visible identity or I can choose to put it on. Mm-hmm. And for someone who stutters, sometimes they have that choice, but that comes with a cost as well, attacks as well as I know it does. And other times it doesn't come out and they choose to hide it. But the hiding concealment is also attack.
So this is something we can think of in different situations, just in terms of what someone can take off. If someone's color of their skin is such that it's just, it is what it is. They don't generally have situations where they can do a color switch. Mm-hmm. A Photoshop. Um, but for some identities, which, which hope's gonna give us a lot insight on, you know, we can do that.
But the activity of managing that. Is burdensome, is effortful. Exactly. Exactly. And can have a big impact. Yeah.
[00:31:42] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. So there are definitely stigmatized identities that you can see all the time that are visible. Um, you know, like having an apparent physical disability isn't something you can get around most of the time.
So people whose stigmatize identities are visible encounter stigma more consistently. So they, it, it kind of, that's hard in itself because they're discriminated against maybe more often, but they can come to learn what to expect and they can easily find people that are like them because they can see more easily, find people who are like them.
When your identities more invisible, it can feel especially isolating because you can't really look around the room and be like, oh, I'm not alone with this. Um, and again, you have that kind of unpredictable kind of part of it. Um, but one point I wanna make is, um. That I don't think it's as simple, especially for stuttering as visible or concealable.
And I would not disagree if someone said, well, I don't really think my stuttering is concealable. Like I stutter a lot and you can see it. Um, and so I think it's more useful to think of this as a spectrum. So even within people who stutter, there will be people who um, either hide their stuttering a lot, they're really good at concealing and so it's super concealed or maybe they don't stutter much and they're not trying to hide it super concealed compared to people who stutter a lot more.
And that idea of the fact that it's concealable doesn't resonate with them. Um, and there's room for that in these conversations because I think that this is something, it's a spectrum. Um, so kind of coming back to a point that you made earlier, which is just kind of being person centered and therapy. Um, my research, my dissertation research, which, um, is under review.
Um. Showed, one of the things that it showed was that concealment. So how much a person tries to hide their stuttering was a better predictor of their wellbeing than stuttering severity.
[00:33:39] Uri Schneider: Just wanna explain for those of you that are not tapped into the research situation and all the protocol and bureaucracy, so in review basically means coming soon.
So what you're getting right now is the trailer, the inside scoop, it's not yet revealed, but it'll be in theaters soon, so Yeah.
[00:33:53] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. And, and so what that means is that, um, the more in general, when I had a large, uh, sample, it was like 500 people who stutter, complete a survey with questions about concealment, questions about their wellbeing, questions about their behavioral stuttering severity, like how much someone can see stuttering and how much their stuttering shows, um, what would usually be called severity, um, how much a person.
Tries to hide stuttering, the more they tried to hide in general, their lower their wellbeing. So the, the more they tried to hide. Another way to say that, the more symptoms of anxiety and depression that they experienced. Um, so I do think this research, research by Chris Constantino and others, um, there is an inherent kind of threat to wellbeing that's associated with concealment.
Um, you know, if you conceal there is, you know, in general it tends to be associated with, um, you know, more symptoms of anxiety and depression, at least according to my research. Um, but with that said. I don't think that this is as simply translates to like, well then we teach our clients not to conceal.
Like we have to eliminate concealment because that's hard and it is a personal choice, and there's nothing inherently wrong with concealing. We do live in an environment that values fluency and sometimes it's like in a job interview, like it can feel like a true threat to reveal that you stutter and you're not bad if you choose to conceal in that moment or if you can choose to conceal in other moments.
Um, this isn't an all or nothing thing like you either. Conceal or you never conceal. And if you're doing it right, you never conceal. Um, I really liked what you talked about earlier, Yuri, which is like, you are letting yourself have the cake. Like, um, if concealing stuttering feels burdensome to you, then you can work on trying to conceal less and trying to be more open about your stuttering.
But that doesn't mean that you need to beat yourself up if you decide to change a word or if you decide to, um, yeah, like find some way to make it easier. So it's not all or nothing. Um, and concealing isn't bad. Concealing Chris Constantino's work shows it can be an active agency. It is an agentic choice.
Like I'm choosing to have control in how other people perceive me in this moment. And so it's not as simple as concealment is bad or harmful, um, but you know, it is, you know, it is a risk.
[00:36:21] Uri Schneider: Yeah, exactly. So when I choose to have self-control at that party. Whether it's not to eat something that doesn't fit on my vegan diet or my kosher diet, or on my caloric diet, or when I choose to indulge the act of making a choice is an act of agency, would you say?
[00:36:39] Hope Gerlach: Yeah,
[00:36:40] Uri Schneider: I think so. And something. So instead of, instead of like fluency therapy or stuttering therapy being about achieving fluency, maybe it's about restoring choice, right? Mm. And giving validity to choice and informing people of the kinds of choices they can make. Mm-hmm. There are certain things that are outside our sphere of influence.
Mm-hmm. And we need to work on those things. They might be in society, culture, they might be, um, things in our biology, like if you're born, uh, a certain height or you're born with, uh, a limb that is missing or you're born with what you said, the glitch, that occasionally you have a hiccup more often than other people when you speak.
That might be outta your sphere of influence, but what you choose to do about it, that's where you can expand your area of agency and choice. And I think a lot of people might not. What we can contribute to is informing them of how much choice there is, whether it's a parent, whether it's a person, whether it's a professional teacher, whatever, creating choice, creating space mm-hmm.
For people to make choices and, and be.
[00:37:34] Hope Gerlach: Mm-hmm. And yeah, like the therapist and me and respecting those choices and being nonjudgmental in those choices. Um, and understanding that even if that's not the choice you would make, that, that it's their choice. And our job is to help them understand other choices they can make, support them in finding the choices that feel most authentic to themselves.
Um, and so I, I do, you know, I think there's definitely clinical implications. And another one is that in that dissertation study, stuttering severity did not correlate to wellbeing. I think, um, it's actually called the fluency fallacy. While manning calls it the fluency fallacy, it's this idea, um, it's a fallacy that like if someone stutters more.
The impact on their quality of life is greater and that's just not true. Uh, research, you know, is time and time again is showing that there, there's very little, if any, correlation between how much someone stutters and their quality of life. And with that said, there are some studies who do show relationship.
There are some studies who don't. It's a little messy, but it is, um, an incorrect assumption to assume that because someone stutters more, they have a lower wellbeing and sometimes it can be reversed. Um, you know, if you've met people who really, really hide their stuttering, that can feel like a real burden sometimes.
And maybe you don't ever see their stuttering 'cause they're so good at hiding it. But the impact is so large. Um, and so how I think this transfer is clinically is just thinking about, yeah, like we're very, we're we live in a fluency centric society. Um. You know, values, fluency. And so as speech therapists, especially if we don't get really good training, we can think that our job is to help people speak more fluently.
And that's often what clients want, because clients who are new want because they aren't sure, they don't know that there are other options. Um, maybe you can work towards speaking more easily. You know, I learned a lot of this from Charles and Riper when we're talking about speaking more easily, but Vivian Siskin would space speaking with more joy, speaking more spontaneously.
Um, and, um, I think this kind of segues into another paper that we've submitted, uh, with Chris Constantino. Um, wow. So we're
[00:39:53] Uri Schneider: getting two, we're getting two trailers. Love it.
[00:39:58] Hope Gerlach: So the paper, and for those
[00:39:59] Uri Schneider: of you that don't know, Chris Constantino is a rock star. Yeah. He's just like, he, but like legitimate. I mean, he, he looks like a rock star.
[00:40:05] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. And he
[00:40:06] Uri Schneider: also just happens to be one of the most articulate. And active, um, researchers and colleagues in the space and for new stutter. Yeah.
[00:40:14] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. And, um, we haven't actually had a chance, we haven't talked about this paper that we've been working on, um, but we're working on a paper that is, um, and we've submitted it, resubmitted it, but, um, that's essentially trying to think about how SLPs can be agents and kind of interrupting the ableism, um, that's associated with stuttering in our society and also in our field.
Um, and so if you've never heard the word ableism, um, ableism is, um. It's this idea that bodies without any type of impairment, like any sensory, any motor impairment, are better than bodies with an impairment. So there's a better way to be in the world. Um, and that if you deviate from that, that makes you lesser and stuttering inferior.
Yeah. Yeah. Fear and stuttering can fall in that because we have this implicit expectation to hear fluent speech because that's what we hear most often. It's the major, it's the majority. Um, and so we might not even realize that we have this expectation for fluent speech until that expectation is violated and we hear someone stutter.
And then, you know, all of, um, ableism can infiltrate our society in ways that we aren't even aware of. Um, like when you think of representations of stuttering in the media. You know, like porky pig, like they're usually pretty poor. Um, those shape how we think about stuttering if we've never had any other, um, exposure to what stuttering is or, you know, most job ads say like require good communication are fluent speech.
Um, and those send the message that like, not stuttering is a better way to be than stuttering. Um, and I think that, you know, and I think the
[00:42:05] Uri Schneider: other, the other part of this, just for people to open their minds to this, if you're not already tuned in, is like, it doesn't have to be intentional. Mm-hmm. It can be kind of an observation of the way culture and societies developed over time.
Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes it takes, as you said, a person who stutters can challenge it for themselves in their own journey and say, you know what? Like, what about this job application truly requires fluent speech? What do they really need? I remember a dental student, a friend of mine who got engaged this year, one of a few people.
Friends who stutter, who got engaged this year, which is huge. And probably the greatest excitement for me is seeing people taking big steps forward that they really never thought they could, but they are showing it and doing it and just enjoying and living fully. Uh, he was going for dental school and he thought, oh my gosh, how am I gonna do the group interview?
How am I gonna say my name? How am I gonna say my name? I got the grades, I got the skills even come from a dental family. Mm-hmm. Um, and I said to him, look, you gotta think about what is the employer really looking for? What is this school really looking for? Like, what are the top five attributes? And just put the concerns of fluency in place, in check.
But I think what we also have to acknowledge as allies, as professionals, or in the world. Yeah. What are the implicit ways that the world and society are set up that create this barrier or this burden for people who have any difference because of this ableism? Mm-hmm. You know, vibe.
[00:43:27] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. So,
[00:43:27] Uri Schneider: yeah, so important.
[00:43:29] Hope Gerlach: And when I, when I think of ableism, like, I think people think that like there are certain people who are ableist and those people are bad and they need to fix what they're doing. And, um, I think it's way more nuanced than that. Um, I think we all, we live in an ableist society, you know, like you can think of like in books, like when characters are nervous, authors commonly add stutters to their speech.
Um, because that's society's kind of conceptual conceptualization of stuttering when they don't fully understand it. Or, you know, the phrase like, um, did I stutter? Um, just it's embedded in ways that we wouldn't even notice. We weren't, if we didn't know kind of to pay attention to it. Um, and so my point is that I don't think it's that certain people are ableist and that other people aren't.
I think it's that we all live in an ableist society and in a society that has strong ableism associated with stuttering and associated with other things. And unless we're making an active effort to try to combat that, we are going to fall victim to thinking in those ways. Um, because that is what has been infused in our brain since before we could.
Read and write and TV and, and all of these modalities. Um, and so I don't think it's that they're these people who are bad and we need to find them and we need to change them. I think it's all, it's just that we can all be better. We should assume that we have ideas about, um, stuttering that might, that might be contributing to stigma.
So an interesting study by, um, Walden at Vanderbilt. Um, so she looked at SLPs and she looked at their implicit and explicit biases about stuttering, and I'll explain what this is. So explicitly. She asked, they asked SLPs what their perceptions of people who stutter were. And of course, you know, as SLPs ILPs, you know, most LPs have good intentions.
You know, I would say almost all SLPs have good intentions. Um, and they report, you know, yeah, of course. Like I don't have negative biases against people who stutter. Um. Of course, like I think that stuttering is an okay way to speak. Um, but then they do this implicit task. So they, they, they, it seems like they have these positive, explicit attitudes, but then there's this implicit task where they have to sort attributes on a computer strain.
And I think they listen to stuttered speech. I'm not sure you'd have to read this study, um, to know the details. But they essentially were, it's a reaction time thing. It's really quick. It taps into your unconscious biases about if stuttered speech is good or bad, and if, if good goes with stuttered or fluent speech.
And what they found was that even when SLPs think. That they feel good about stuttering and that they don't hold biases. Their implicit judgment and reaction times shows that they do have these hardwired association, that fluent speech is good. Um, and that stutter speech might not be as good. It's, it's harder to make that connection.
That stutter speech can be good too because society and culture teaches us that fluent speech is good, fluent speech is good. So you have to actively untrain your brain to really be able to, um, combat that. And so, in my opinion, it's not that certain people are bad and that, um, you know, we need to find them and we need to help them understand stuttering.
It's that we all have work to do when we are trying to make the better the world, a better place for people who stutter. And that it's much safer to assume that you have work to do and that you will make mistakes. Um, and to be open to feedback. Um, I remember when I first started out, um, in academia, I was.
Like, I think I was a little intimidated by the fact that I don't stutter because there are a lot of amazing researchers who stutter and they get that experience. I just
[00:47:20] Uri Schneider: wanna stop on that. 'cause I think most people who stutter don't appreciate that, that those of us that are fluent are intimidated. I think that's an interesting paradox that it's, it's worth just stopping on to say that like, we have some intimidation when we step into this space because we feel that we're the ones that don't have the fullest, um, entitlement or the fullest in, you know, we're not on necessarily on the inside.
We feel we we're, we're aware that it's a tender space and that we need to be aware of the fact that we don't know it from the inside. It's compared to those people who do stutter. And I think for people who stutter, to hear that from people like us, I think is very powerful. Just to stop on that for a moment, but that's all.
Yeah.
[00:47:57] Hope Gerlach: And also just to, like, I just wanted so badly to show like that, like, I really wanna respect your culture, like stuttering culture, like, um, like. Yeah, just I wanna like listen and understand, but I, there were years that went by when I would give a talk, I would be really nervous. I would say something that a person who stutters wouldn't like.
Um, maybe because it was fueled with stigma, um, and it wouldn't do it on purpose. But I really remember, I was really afraid to do that for a while. Um, but what really helped me was to let go of that way of. Thinking and to just assume that I, we don't all think the same. And sometimes I will say something that doesn't sit well with someone because we all think about things differently at different times.
Um, and to just stop trying to not mess up and instead assume that I'm going to accidentally say something that someone might not agree, agree with, or that might contribute to stigma and be willing to own it when I do. And to be willing to say, you know what, I've never thought about that way. Um, so for example, like, um, whether or not we should use person first or identity first language is, um, in, for example, in the autism world, they're moving back towards identity, first language.
And that autistic saying that, um, that there's an autistic child is more respectful than saying a child with autism. Um. And in the stuttering literature we are, it seems like still very much so appreciating person first language. Um, so person who stutters and that it's not all of them. There's, we could have a whole nother chat about that.
Um, but anyway, um. I might, someone might prefer the word stutterer, and I might use the word person who stutters. And if they say like, that's not my preference. Or maybe vice versa. I don't tend to use the word stutterer because I don't stutter myself, but I also, if someone wants me to use that word and they stutter, I'm gonna honor their request because it's about honoring the person who has the experience.
And so, um, it's not about being wrong, it's about expecting that you need to grow, um, and being open to that feedback. And I just think that like, this doesn't have to be, um, like a us versus them, like a person who stutters, first person who doesn't, um, or like an SLPs versus people who stutter. Um, like I see it as like when we're talking about ableism, it's hard to talk about.
It's hard to talk about. And I see it as an us with them. Um, whether that's SLPs or related to stuttering, like when we talk about, um, ableism and when I get some examples of ableism are. Um, that people who stutter my experience would be, um, like being cut off like when someone's speaking to them or being mocked or being discriminated at the workplace, which some of my research has shown that peop that can happen.
Um, it's not dusting that under cadence rug.
[00:50:51] Uri Schneider: It's the ca the cadence ordering coffee. Exactly,
[00:50:54] Hope Gerlach: exactly. The expectation
[00:50:54] Uri Schneider: of what timing it takes and when is it a reasonable thing to interrupt or when is it reasonable to kind of rush someone along. All those expectations of the cadence with which speech is expected to flow, just even in such a non intentionally threatening way.
Those are the ways that the world's pace is set to a certain type of speech. And when someone speaks in a different way. Um, they're confronting this kind of, uh, expectation that they, they can't be expected to match up to.
[00:51:21] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. And I think as SLPs like, it's easy to just like kind of sweep that under the rug because it's hard, it's hard to talk about when a person experiences discrimination and it can feel like, what can you do about it?
Like, it's easier to be like, well, we can focus on what you can do. Um, and I think there's certainly a place for that. Like, how can we help you have more choices when you encounter something like a microaggression or a full-blown act of discrimination or just a sn like a snarky remark. Um, how can we help you feel.
More. Yeah. Like ready to manage. That's
[00:51:55] Uri Schneider: what people wanna hear. That's what there was a question here
[00:51:57] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. From one
[00:51:57] Uri Schneider: of our listeners says, what can those of us who don't stutter, uh, what are some antidotes to this? What are some things we can do either in that moment or in general? And I think also I'd love for you to give you a chance to circle back to, um, for the person who stutters the power of disclosure and some of what you shared with me and wanted to share with our listeners.
And then, uh, if there's time, we'll try to touch some of the comments and questions. And if not, we'll get to those, you know, in the comments and questions later on Facebook. But I just wanna thank everybody for being here. Mm-hmm. This clearly is drawing a lot of people's attention. This is, as I said, as I promised hope is, is doing some of the special work that is really moving the field forward with many of our colleagues.
Mm-hmm. And if you like this, like it, share it, comment away. And also check it out on the podcast transcending, stuttering. Subscribe and like, but uh, hope you're just sharing so much great stuff that we need to hear. So from the point of view of people who are don't stutter, what could they do? What are like some antidotes to these things?
Yeah. And then for the person who stutters, that disclosure piece that you were sharing with me, I think is really powerful.
[00:52:55] Hope Gerlach: Yeah. Um, so what can we do? Um, this is partly what the paper with Chris, it's a, it's a clinical tutorial. So it's all about what can SLPs do to interrupt this. And what I was saying, and then I'll get back to what you were talking about, is that, you know, we can help people who stutter, feel like they have more choices when they experience, um, discrimination.
And it's not something they just have to like be helpless to. And I think that's a role for us. But I do think a role for us is also helping society better understand stuttering. And I think some ways you can do that. The best thing you can do, I think is to, um, speak up like and assume, like when someone says something.
Bad about stuttering that would contribute to stuttering? The stigma of stuttering. Um, for me, I try not to make assumptions about their character. Like I try not to make assumption that they're a bad person. I just separate that and instead I'm like, what They said it can't, it can't sit like this if I don't say something, this is gonna contribute to, um, further stigmatization.
So an example might be like a coworker saying like, oh yeah, that person was stuttering really bad today. This idea that that contributes. Like that's those, those are the comments that they're so small, but they, they shape how we see stuttering. You can say, you know, oh, like, um. You could, there's so many ways you could respond to that.
You could be like, oh, like I disagree. Like, I was so happy to hear like what he had to say. You can express that you disagree. You can also kind of reframe it. You can be like, oh yeah, I noticed he was stuttering more. But like, he was really excited, um, to share his point. And it was a really good point. And just stepping in, um, sharing good information about stuttering.
Um, and really just like decentering the listener, which is where I see kind of the future of our field going is centering the person who stutters. Um, it's not a, doesn't have to be all about what society hears. It can very much be shifted to what the person experiences. Um, and so it doesn't matter if we hear fluent speech or stutter speech and some people would disagree.
I might disagree with my own self on that comment on another day. Um, but just always trying to bring it back to the person and, um. Yuri, I will share, I have a comic that I did with Elizabeth Whistler about allyship, um, and how to be an ally in the moment. Um, and I'm, don't call my, I'm not an allyship expert.
Um, this was, um, generated with a person who stutters. Like, I'm still learning. I will always still be learning. Um, but hopefully that can get you some tips. Um, and then Yuri is, I feel like, so, we'll, just
[00:55:34] Uri Schneider: for people that are listening, people that are listening, just share that. We'll, we'll have this up on the blog and, uh, I know that there's tremendous interest in hope's work, and we're gonna have hope.
Send us some of the research and, and this image and others, and we'll put it all on our blog page. So schneiders speech.com/our blog. We have each of these conversations has a dedicated blog post where you can rewatch the video and you can also get the person's bio and whatever links they share with us.
So please check that out. That'll be up by the end of the week, and then the podcast will be up on Sunday. But, uh, pack in whatever you want. Whatever you can. Um,
[00:56:05] Hope Gerlach: yeah, I was just gonna say, I think we should save the disclosure chat. I think that could be a whole nother chat another time. You mean you're ready
[00:56:11] Uri Schneider: to come back for part two?
[00:56:12] Hope Gerlach: I would come back, uh, definitely for a part two. Um, but what
[00:56:16] Uri Schneider: give a, like, give a, like, I just wanna know if you want Hopee to come back, just drop your likes and loves and all that, then I'll know that, that I'm not the only one that's itching for part two with Dr. Gerlach, but, uh, yeah. Awesome. So we'll hold that.
Where did you wanna go with the last few minutes? Yeah.
[00:56:31] Hope Gerlach: I just wanted to end by just, again, getting back to like the individuality of the experience of stuttering. Um, my work focuses on people who stutter, who are struggling and how to reduce that struggle. Um, but I just wanna highlight there's a lot of people who stutter who aren't struggling, and we shouldn't assume that everyone who stutters are fighting these battles that I've been talking about.
Um, and that I also wanna just drop the idea of stutter gain. Um, if you haven't, um, you could do a quick Google search of Chris Constantino and stutter gain, and it's this idea that there are lots of good things you can gain from living with stutter. Um, some people who stutter. I just
[00:57:09] Uri Schneider: wanna make a quick plug.
Yeah, interrupt just for a second. There's a project from Google. Uh, some of us were on a call with Google. They're looking to get more samples of, of people who stutter to get samples of speech, people who stutter so that the AI can still understand the same way it would fluent speech. So trying to get that, you know, diverse samples of spoken words so that people who stutter can take advantage of things like Siri and Google Assistant and all these other things, which coming years, there's gonna be more and more of controlling technology through voice.
So I just wanna ask everyone to make the contribution to check that out. We'll put a link up for that as well. Mm-hmm. But in line with that, I would say if we had EIA checking out this conversation, the most frequently mentioned name is Chris Constantino. And that's for good reason. That's all. Mm-hmm.
Just keeps coming back to Chris. That's all. Yeah. Stuttering game.
[00:58:00] Hope Gerlach: Um, but yeah, so I just, you know, like want people to understand that stuttering adds and adds value to the world. Um, like it, it gives us an opportunity to be a better listener. Um, it gives us an opportunity to connect on a deeper level. Um, and so I don't want people to walk away thinking that, um, stuttering is always boiled down to hardship and challenge.
Um, there's a lot of really beautiful things that can come from stuttering too. It's very nuanced. Um, and I think that's really all I have. Just wanna say thanks for having me, and it's been a really nice conversation.
[00:58:38] Uri Schneider: Oh my gosh. Nice. Doesn't really do justice. Magnificent. Thank you. Magnificent.
Informative, enriching. And when I said what I said the, the likes and the comments just started pouring in, literally pouring in. You really shared so much that people really. Wanted to hear, needed to hear. Uh, there were things here that were validating things I've heard or read from your work and from others.
There were things here that really give me pause and something to think about. I think all of us, I would hope that everybody would do the same. Just kind of be on the lookout for people with the integrity and the intelligence and the perspective that is not your own and kind of lean in and listen and kind of holds, hold your own thought processes.
And I would say to that point, what hope just said about the benefit of stuttering recently finished up working with a young man. It's actually a double-edged beautiful story, so I'll share with this story. Young man, uh, kid, junior high schooler. I've mentioned him before. His name is Drew. And after a couple of visits, we got to a really good place and I said to Drew like, what was the best part of the experience?
And he said his part. And I said to his mom, what was the best part of your experience? He said, I've really come to appreciate that. Like I'm a little wired to go fast and it's not necessarily good for me. Drew and this whole process of like really connecting with my son through this, his stutter has been so helpful to me to calibrate the rate of my life.
And so that's just such a beautiful example of what those of us on the outside can gain from stuttering. And of course, people who stutter sometimes find that they, they develop incredible vocabulary, incredible written ability, incredible conviction, incredible strength discrimination. So going right back to the beginning with Joseph Sheen, the I idea, the iceberg and what, what hope caught herself, the old models of the iceberg.
The old models we were taught often had all negative things. And the newer models, Nina G and the ones that I use in my presentations always talk about, it's not all negative. Mm-hmm. So the things that can be beneath the iceberg that you wanna check in for. This person has incredible resilience and determination.
They don't let anything stop them. That's, there's courage there. Mm-hmm. That the average person has never had to flex. And that muscle is like a bodybuilder and going into adult life and adulting and maturing and contributing to community and to the world, to the workforce, its relationship and the family.
Those are the attributes that we all want. Mm-hmm. And so this image or this fantasy of perfection is so surface deep. And when we think about what we really want for humanity and from all of us, and that's why hope and I, I think are addicted to the work is that through stuttering, we also see parts of ourselves that we're grappling with and wanting to do better, um, and learn and grow and offer the world.
And I think if we can all just look at each other and listen to the inner story, not just the outside, we're all gonna be better for it. And the second part of that story is there's a young man. I said to him, would you be a mentor? He was looking for jobs and he was worried in his job hunting that he was gonna be isolated for his stuttering.
And he didn't know how to expose himself or to disclose or be open about his stuttering in the job hunt on LinkedIn. He looked great, but on the phone call, on the Zoom interview in the office, he was worried, what's gonna be when I have to talk and I get stuck? What are they gonna think of me? So we came up with an idea.
I said, listen, why don't you put on your resume in the volunteerism section, in your resume, you have all your, all the stuff you typically would put in the volunteerism. Say you're a mentor for young people who stutter that from a point of view of being someone who grew up with this. You give back, you pay it forward.
I said, but the only condition is you gotta be true. You gotta be honest about it and really do it. So I paired him up with Drew and I kid you not, he sent me an email yesterday and in his email he said to me at the time when you suggested the mentorship, I did it 'cause I thought it was a nice idea. I had no idea what it was gonna do for me.
For all of us in a position. That's another theme that comes through these conversations. Give back, pay it forward, open doors for others. Be the advocate, be the ally in that moment, be that advocate, that ally to get in front of the moment so that the moment doesn't even happen. But you're actually changing things ahead of time to build ramps of success and access for others.
And ultimately together one by one, we can really make ripples and we don't know how far those ripples can go and hope your work. I kid you not, has touched my work, uh, way far from Kalamazoo and I know that Charles Van Riper, uh, is definitely proud sure of what you're producing, um, and carrying on in Western Michigan.
And thank you to everybody who listened and shared and also set the stage for this conversation. My teachers and mentors, hopes teachers and mentors, and our colleagues and friends, thank you for joining us for this conversation. Share it and if you can, go to the podcast, transcending stuttering, subscribe and drop your views.
It'll help us just reach more people that need to hear the good work of hope in others. Thanks so much everybody. Have a great day and thank you again.