#89 Confidence from the Courtroom to the Boardroom: Stuttering, Substance, and Leadership with Mike Liben
“Clearly, you don’t lack for confidence, so we’ll go with that.”
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Youtube or your favorite podcast platform.
“It’s not perfect - except we do what we have to regardless.”
Mike's not saying communication challenges don't matter. He's saying they don't have to stop you. And he shows us how.
In second grade, Mike stepped onto the stage at the school assembly to lead the Pledge of Allegiance - but he got stuck for 30 seconds. The auditorium was full of parents and students with all eyes and ears hanging on his words.
The real surprise is what happened after Mike got his words out.
A rush. Not relief. An actual high. "I got through it. I did it."
If you stutter, you know that feeling. And if you don't stutter, you might know the feeling of getting stuck - even paralyzed with fear - and then getting through it anyway. The complex relationship with something that's hard and somehow it becomes part of how you grow.
Today Mike is CEO of Chai Travel. He leads meetings, closes deals, and navigates difficult conversations daily. But this isn't the artificial story of how "he overcame stuttering." Mike still stutters. This is the real story of how he decided stuttering wouldn't stop him.
When the Brooklyn DA offered Mike the option to avoid the courtroom - and do more desk work - Mike said "absolutely not." Mike was resolute: "I'll say what I need to say. And they'll listen." He took the harder path - and it actually made him stronger. And here's the thing: judges started requesting him. Not despite his stutter. Because of what he brought to the room.
Here's what every leader can learn from Mike: substance beats style. The best communicators aren't the smoothest talkers. They're the most prepared. The ones who deliver substance. The ones who show up even when it's hard.
Mike's courtroom success wasn't about fluency - it was about doing the work. Now, he's entered the next chapter of his career, as a founder and CEO at Chai Travel. He is value-driven, following the example of his father, Barry Liben, a self-made success and impressive personality. It's about treating people like family and solving real problems. Whether you stutter or not, Mike proves that speaking with confidence comes from knowing what you have to say matters more than how you say it.
This is an honest conversation about what it takes. His success as an entrepreneur, leader and prosecuting attorney in the Brooklyn courtrooms is the product of his life lessons. Mike talks about his black-tie bar mitzvah speech when fluency went "off the rails" in front of hundreds of people. The moment at 13 Mike told Uri's dad, "I think I'm done with therapy." His father Barry - a force - claiming "I want my money back" after years of speech therapy. And seeing how his father's own perseverance through severe mobility challenges provided an unintended masterclass in relentless determination and grit.
This episode is for:
Leaders who want to communicate more effectively - focusing on substance more than style
People who stutter - discover what's possible when you stop waiting for fluency
Professionals navigating difficult conversations - how to stay grounded in high-stakes situations
Parents trying to help kids - help your kids get better without making speech the defining thing
Anyone who wants to communicate with confidence
What you'll hear:
Why preparation and substance beat smooth style every time (courtroom lessons for every leader)
The "rush" after doing hard things - and what it teaches about building confidence
How to navigate difficult conversations when the stakes are high
Barry Liben's intensity - how the same force that was sometimes tough for young Mike also became his model for resilience
Why judges preferred Mike in court (hint: it wasn't his fluency!)
What Mike learned from stuttering - and from watching his father
How stuttering built the empathy that makes Mike a better CEO
The business values behind Chai Travel's success
What every professional can learn about speaking with confidence - in meetings, presentations, and executive level conversations
Mike's message: Substance beats style. Whether you're leading a courtroom argument, a board meeting, or a difficult conversation. What you have to say will always trump however you say it.
“What I have to say will trump however I’m saying it.”
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
"I have an obsession with substance" - Mike's leadership philosophy
30 seconds on stage - The Pledge of Allegiance moment at the school assembly
The paradox of the rush - What doing hard things teaches about confidence
"The best trial attorneys are the most prepared" - Why substance beats smooth delivery
Barry's frustration - "I want my money back" after years of therapy
When Barry's perspective shifted - Seeing the stuttering community and realizing Mike would be okay
The unintended masterclass - How Barry's mobility challenges taught relentless determination
Bar mitzvah at 13 - When fluency went "off the rails" in front of hundreds
"I think I'm done with therapy" - Mike's choice and why his parents let him decide
Choosing the courtroom - Why Mike took the harder communication path
Mike's response to the DA - "I'll say what I need to say. And they'll listen."
Judges requested him - How preparation and substance won over style
Leading as CEO - What Mike's experience teaches about effective communication
The turbulence analogy - When to push through difficult conversations vs. when to reroute
Chai Travel's founding - Building a business on family values and Barry's example
Empathy as competitive advantage - Understanding challenges makes you a better leader
"Substance is what matters" - Mike's billboard message for every leader
TIMESTAMPS:
[00:00] Mike's obsession with substance over style
[05:26] On stage at the school assembly: 30 seconds stuck
[08:02] The "rush" after hard moments
[09:42] Doing hard things builds leadership capacity
[16:25] Barry's frustration: "I want my money back"
[19:39] Barry's mobility challenges: Modeling relentless determination
[22:41] Bar mitzvah: When fluency went "off the rails"
[27:03] "I think I'm done with therapy"
[33:48] Why the best attorneys are the most prepared
[35:23] The DA's suggestion: "Maybe avoid the courtroom"
[36:13] Mike's response: "I'll say what I need to say. And they'll listen."
[39:31] Judges started requesting Mike
[42:06] Starting Chai Travel following Barry's example
[42:48] Barry's credo: Treat everyone like family
[45:06] The turbulence analogy for difficult conversations
[46:51] Leading as CEO with stuttering
[49:35] Empathy as competitive advantage
[58:42] Mike's billboard: "Substance is what matters"
GUEST BIO
Mike Liben co-founded Chai Travel after a decade of public service representing victims of domestic violence at the Brooklyn District Attorney’s Office.
He grew up in the travel industry and knows that there is no business as exciting or rewarding.
He feels tremendously privileged to work alongside his sisters and David Buda to build the premiere home for independent travel advisors.
In addition to Chai, Mike dedicates himself to various political and charitable causes as well as to his beloved New York Giants.
He resides in Brooklyn, NY with his wife Lindsay and their three daughters.
ABOUT OUR HOST
Uri Schneider, M.A. CCC -SLP is co-founder and leader at Schneider Speech; creator and host of TranscendingX podcast community; and former faculty at the University of California, Riverside School of Medicine.
MORE QUOTES
“I have an obsession with substance.”
“I’m just looking forward to having a natural kind of flowing conversation.”
“It isn’t only a lot of work to be hyper vigilant about the way that you are speaking, but more importantly… it takes away from the cognitive ability to focus on the substance of what I am saying.”
“Stuttering is just one of a thousand things that makes you who you are.”
“There’s a rush… like, oh my God. Like I got through that and I did it.”
“If you grow up doing hard things, you can do things that are hard.”
“The only way to get better at doing things that are hard, is to do things that are hard.”
“The best thing, obviously, is just to wait.”
“Everybody has their challenges. This is just what mine looks like.”
“If the message is there, then the fluency and the style is really secondary.”
“I have this challenge in my life. Here’s what I’m doing about it now.”
“Yeah, it’s not perfect except we do what we have to regardless.”
“At the end of the day, the substance is what’s gonna carry the day.”
Resources:
Learn more about Chai Travel
Remembering Barry Liben
Transcending Stuttering Documentary Films:
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Mike Liben: I have an obsession with substance.
[00:00:03] Uri Schneider: What would make this a win for you?
[00:00:05] Mike Liben: I'm just looking forward to having a natural kind of flowing conversation,
That could happen at eight or could happen right now at the age of 40, and I would still answer exactly the same.
it's really about a balance. There are times when I need to turn it on and I need to
push the slider a little bit into the middle between the style and substance but, um, usually I err on the side of substance.
It has provided me with a lot of
empathy for, for working with people who are having their own issues. and a huge part of properly running an organization is helping people, in whatever way that we can.
[00:00:46] Uri Schneider: This episode with Michael Liben is unbelievable. I've known Michael since I was a kid. He's the 8-year-old kid in the beginning of our documentary film, Transcending Stuttering. His journey has been an inspiration and a lesson for all of us, and it's so exciting to sit down with him now as he leads as the CEO of Chai Travel.
And we cover everything from his time in the DA office in Brooklyn to being the CEO. And growing up from that kid who was eight years old in my dad's office to becoming the man, the husband, the father and leader that he is today.
/
[00:01:21] Uri Schneider: Welcome to TranscendingX. Whether it's stuttering, public speaking, or crucial conversations, all of us have something that holds us back. What if there was a way through it? I'm Uri Schneider from Schneider Speech, where we help people talk more and fear less, and I'm the host of the TranscendingX community.
Join me as we talk to high performers, researchers, and everyday heroes to discover how they transform their challenges into breakthroughs, and most of all, find ways for each of us to transcend X in our own lives.
/
[00:02:06] Uri Schneider: So thanks for coming in, Mike.
[00:02:08] Mike Liben: Well, thank. Thank you very much for having me. I'm really excited about this.
[00:02:13] Uri Schneider: So I told you I always like to start, like what's one thing people don't know about you that doesn't show up or something you're proud of that doesn't show up on your resume or in LinkedIn or in public, but it's something that's important to you?
[00:02:25] Mike Liben: Yeah, so you know, I think what is really important to me, especially in the context of what's on a resume, what's on LinkedIn is, um, which can. Oftentimes be focused so much on style that I really, I have an obsession with, I think substance. And yes, you need the style, but I'm always extremely focused on, on, on, on the substance of things and.
Uh, and taking the opportunity to figure out how to, how to, how, how to
bring that out of people and organizations
[00:03:28] Uri Schneider: substance. What you have to say is more than how you say it. And another line that you've said is. This is really striking. This is one of these, these paradoxical, counterintuitive things when people listen to you and you have a stuttery moment like that one.
Sure.
[00:03:43] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:03:44] Uri Schneider: People have all kinds of thoughts about what's going on in your head and what's happening. And I remember in one of the documentary films, I think it was the second one, so the first one's Transcending Stuttering, the second one's Going with the Flow. You say, you know, stuttering is just one of a thousand things that makes you who you are.
Yeah. And in the beginning of the film, when you're eight years old. You were in my father's office, you had a pretty stuttery day that day. And uh, and then my dad does this little experiment with you and he says, well, what if you try going like this and talking like this? And all of a sudden, in the same day, same hour, the words just kind of flow outta your mouth.
And then my father asks you the question that most people don't ask, which is, which did you prefer?
[00:04:25] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:04:26] Uri Schneider: And you say, the first one kind of stuttering my head off as an 8-year-old. And he says, that's surprising. Why is that? You said, well, the other one takes a lot of work.
[00:04:35] Mike Liben: Yeah, and it, you know, the truth is that could happen at eight or could happen right now at the age of 40, and I would still answer exactly the same and the answer remains the same because, um, it isn't only a lot of work to have to, you know.
Be hyper vigilant about the way that you are speaking, but more importantly to me, it takes away from the cognitive ability to focus on the substance of what I am saying, which is the most important thing to me.
[00:05:13] Uri Schneider: So it's like a really intentional decision for you. For some of us, we can choose substance, we could slide this way, but for you it's really intentional.
[00:05:21] Mike Liben: Yeah, and you know, also. I think we'll probably hit a few more times. It's really about a balance. There are times when I need to turn it on and I need to, you know, hit, I need to, uh.
Push the slider a little bit into the middle between the style and substance about speaking. But, um, usually I err on the side of substance.
[00:05:48] Uri Schneider: So like the stuttering is, can be an elephant in the room. Sure. I don't want to be the only thing we talk about. Sure. But let's just lead with it because I think it's, it's the thing that a lot of people are really curious about.
Then there's like so much more to slide into. We were gonna talk about leadership and entrepreneurship and being second generation or following in the footsteps or blazing our own paths mm-hmm. With fathers who are giants and Giants fans. At least on your dad's side.
[00:06:11] Mike Liben: That's right.
[00:06:12] Uri Schneider: Um, so yeah. So like what was, what stands out to you as a impressionable memory?
The earliest memory or the most impressional memory of childhood? Growing up with a pretty strong stutter.
[00:06:24] Mike Liben: Um. Y in, um, it's hard to think of the first memory
I have as a person who stuttered
because it was,
because it was always present. Um, in terms of the first kind of impressionable memory that I have in terms of this was a really hard moment. Um, I remember being, I think it was in, in, it was actually towards the, the. The, the end of elementary school and I was, and I had the opportunity to lead an assembly, including all the parents were there in the audience, all the kids were on stage.
And it was my job to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Um, and so I walked up to the front of the stage and. Completely blocked, like a mountain size block on the very first word And, uh, you know, and, and I was under the lights, all my classmates were behind me. A few hundred parents were in front of me, and it just wouldn't let up.
It was a couple minutes, like in real time, it was a couple minutes. Um, and that was a very hard mm-hmm.
moment One that stuck with me for a long time, um, it did not taught me from seeking out those opportunities in the future. I don't really know why, but it didn't.
[00:08:01] Uri Schneider: Are you a masochist? Like what
is it?
[00:08:02] Mike Liben: It might be, you know, I think the truth of the matter is there is, you know, for me, no matter how long that time is, where I was unable to speak right afterwards, right when I got the pledge of Allegiance out eventually.
There's a rush and uh, I don't know if that's just kind of programming or what it is, but there was a rush that completely washed away, um, the really traumatic feelings that I had a couple minutes before.
[00:08:33] Uri Schneider: I never heard you say that. Yeah. Can you describe that rush? Like give it some
[00:08:37] Mike Liben: Yeah. It's like an adrenaline rush almost of, oh my God.
Like I got through that and I did it, and I like the feeling of having completed this public speaking experience in some way, and that has, that has been true time and time again, where oftentimes I'll be in a high stress communication situation and it will be and and it can be hard throughout and a little stressful throughout.
And then immediately afterwards I just feel great
about it,
[00:09:24] Uri Schneider: feel great.
[00:09:25] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:09:25] Uri Schneider: It's not just like I survived.
[00:09:27] Mike Liben: No,
it's feeling really good that I did it.
[00:09:30] Uri Schneider: I think people who stutter and people like you, I, I think of, and I don't wanna like steal your experience, but I think of. You know, if you grow up doing hard things.
[00:09:39] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:09:40] Uri Schneider: So you can do things that are hard.
[00:09:42] Mike Liben: Yeah. It's the only way to get better at doing things that are hard, is to do things that are hard. It's like anything else in life. It's a skill that you can learn and cultivate.
[00:09:50] Uri Schneider: What was, uh, what was the dumbest thing someone said to you growing up? You must have a, a long list, but if you pick one or two, the dumbest thing, whether it was a teacher, a family member, a speech therapist, a friend,
[00:10:01] Mike Liben: I remember, um.
I can't remember exactly who it was, but somebody told me if I stomp my foot while I am stuttering, I will eventually be able to get it out. Um, needless to say, it has not worked yet.
No.
[00:10:23] Uri Schneider: What was another one? Uh, not just a, not just a tip of what to do, but like, I don't know, some completely unsophisticated, off, off point.
And maybe bothersome dumb,
[00:10:35] Mike Liben: you know, uh, even though it's really
like,
[00:10:38] Uri Schneider: did you forget the plea of allegiance? Like, I'm thinking like that.
[00:10:40] Mike Liben: Oh no. The most, what's common
one is, and still happened to this day. It happened last week. Did, did you forget your name?
Yeah.
That happens all the time.
[00:10:49] Uri Schneider: Are they
serious?
[00:10:50] Mike Liben: And that is something that I've come, well, you know, I've, it is a. And it's a very bizarre question to ask, and I don't know if it's joking or if it's just because they're uncomfortable maybe. But it is a really common one. It happens a few times a year.
[00:11:06] Uri Schneider: And how do you deal with it?
[00:11:07] Mike Liben: I say, I'll usually respond that I have not forgotten my name.
I have a speech impediment. I have a speech issue, and that really also then flips the tables completely in terms of the dynamic. And I'll usually get some kind of. Overly obsequious apology that they feel terrible for having said that.
[00:11:27] Uri Schneider: And how do you feel about that? Do you ever get that look like, that pity?
Oh, oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:11:33] Mike Liben: You know, if I do, it really doesn't register for me like that. 'cause I think I, you know, that isn't anything that is, that I feel. Um, and so it. And if that's what people are transmitting in, it's not how it's coming over to me.
[00:11:50] Uri Schneider: So if you transition to like, what was the dumbest thing?
What was the most helpful thing? What are some helpful moments or helpful experiences?
[00:11:57] Mike Liben: You know,
as I think most people would say, the really the best thing, obviously is just to wait, right? To just really say nothing or do nothing the way you would waiting for anybody else to finish speaking.
Um, and in terms of, you know, what people actually say that I find to be meaningful or helpful is wh-- wh-- wh-- when I'm done speaking, you know, people will often share their own experiences with people, with people who stutter. Um, or, you know, words of encouragement are fine as long as it's really genuine and nice.
Yeah, that's all good.
[00:13:02] Uri Schneider: And what about your parents, your parents, Cindy and your dad Barry. Mm-hmm. Passed away. It's gonna be almost six years now. Mm-hmm. Coming up in January. Um, and then you met someone by the name of Dr. Phil Schneider at some point I did. So like what, what roles did they play in your journey to kind of getting to where you are today in relation to this?
What are some, I mean, what are, what are some outstanding. Inputs or moments or inflection points?
[00:13:27] Mike Liben: Yeah. The three people you just mentioned primarily your uh, primarily my parents. And then, you know, in the same group, certainly y-- y-- your father, Phil are the three most critical people that I had in my life in terms of creating the right attitude around, around th-- th-- um this particular issue for me.
Um,
you know, and, uh, each of them in extremely different ways. My mom. Grew up with a stutter as
well. Um, so she had a lot of,
uh,
perspective on what it was like. And she was always tremendously supportive emotionally, um, from day one. Always extremely patient and always extremely kind and supportive in her own quiet, steady
way.
Um,
my dad's,
[00:15:01] Uri Schneider: let's just like get a picture of your dad.
[00:15:03] Mike Liben: Yeah. It's so different story.
[00:15:04] Uri Schneider: Not in his own quiet way.
[00:15:06] Mike Liben: He didn't do anything in his own quiet way. Um, he did everything tremendously, intensely with all of his heart and with all of his with all of his power and all of his resources and just everything he had.
But you know, the flip side of that was it could be very intense about things and, um, you know, oftentimes early on and, and there was a pretty key turning point in, in involving National Stuttering Association, but prior to our involvement until I was about 11 or so, um. It was very hard, uh, um, on my dad. I think he had real concerns over if I would be able to be a,
a,
a full, a fully functioning member of society, if I would have a family, if I would've a
job. And. As was pretty classic of my dad, who was the most wonderful person, but you knew exactly where he stood. He could never hide it. He was not able to hide it from me either.
[00:16:23] Uri Schneider: Subtlety was not a strength of his.
Correct?
[00:16:25] Mike Liben: Correct. Um, so that was very hard on him and, you know, it was not a secret to me how hard it was on him. Um, and that was one of the. One of the harder parts of n of navigating this issue as a child was also was, was dealing with his feelings around it.
Um,
[00:16:51] Uri Schneider: how did that play out? What do you remember of that?
[00:16:53] Mike Liben: So, you know, as a school age kid
Yeah, exactly. As a, as a school aged kids, I mean, I did a lot of speech therapy, um, and I remember very clearly his frustrations about why it wasn't working. Um, he's like, you know, we spend all this time on it, all these resources on it, and yet it isn't working.
[00:17:14] Uri Schneider: Well, he told my dad the same thing.
Yeah. I think he said, you know, we've been coming here this many times, he still stutters. I want my money back.
[00:17:20] Mike Liben: Yeah, that sounds like dad. Sounds like dad. Um, and you know, I think it wasn't until, until la- later on, um. A. when we got involved in a little bit of the larger stuttering community, and he was exposed to a lot more people who dealt with this issue.
And he saw that they were fully functioning members of society and they had jobs and they had families, and they did all the things that they had, all the w they had all the wonderful parts of life that people have and all the trouble people have in life too. Um, and the other part was, I think he saw me.
Grow. He saw me grow into my own life a little bit and he realized, oh, you know, this kid's probably gonna be okay. Um, and, and so, you know, the, the, um, it it, well, uh, what was interesting to me also to keep the conversation on him for a little bit, and I don't think he ever realized this, but he, but a, a part of why
why I was able to attack this issue the way that I did and not let it stop me was also watching him a little bit. You know, he had his own issues. Um, he was pre, he was relatively physically limited for a large portion of his life, and I watched that. He never let that stop him. He went everywhere. He, he.
He, he did what he wanted to do and he, you know, used everything available to him to alter the world in a way that he, that he'd be able to operate inside of it comfortably. And I think that is that while, you know, not, not, um, obvious to me until I think after he passed, probably was
a lot of how how I was able to look at this challenge in the way that, that, that, in the way that I have.
[00:19:39] Uri Schneider: So powerful, the same intensity, relentlessness.
That was a little bit rough as being his son who stutters as a school age kid was the same. Relentlessness and toughness. That was the model of how he operated in the world. That then,
yeah,
later on you're able to say like, I, I actually got a lot from that.
[00:19:57] Mike Liben: Yeah, exactly. And you know, he didn't really wanna talk about his stuff, but he was happy to throw himself into, you know.
And, um, he was happy to throw himself into the stuttering world and help in any way that he could.
[00:20:11] Uri Schneider: I think just in general, uh, an interesting thing that I started to see, and I think I got from my dad, if I had time to do a PhD, I would look at less about the, like, genetic transmission of a gene. Mm-hmm.
That's interesting. And there are a lot of people doing that research. Yeah. But looking at the transmission of resilience mm-hmm. The transmission of temperament. Mm-hmm. And so like if you've got a kid dealing with adversity or you're dealing with adversity, a really good indicator is looking at how the previous generation deal with adversity.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, uh, it's very striking.
Yeah.
It's very, very striking.
[00:20:40] Mike Liben: Yeah. Um, and in terms of the work and the friendship with you, with your dad, Phil, I mean. You know, he, he talks about having learned from the people that he worked with and from me. But the, and the truth is, you know, I think a lot of what I use as my own guiding principles around this issue really come directly from him.
You know, um, I, because we would spend a lot of time talk. Talking about how I was feeling about things, um, you know, what the work kind of meant on a level of, well, do you want to, do you want to use the skills? What do you wanna accomplish out of this? And I think that was a huge part of it. And also, you know, he.
He, he also was able to phrase a lot of these things that I had been feeling in ways that really, um, really then became my, my own mantras. And he gave me a lot of credit for them, except I, except a huge amount of it I got from him. What's one for sure. The whole thing about how, um, viewing stuttering more as a, as as.
as a universal challenge that, that we all have and we all deal with. And if you think of things like that, you don't feel as, you know, you, you, you, you, you don't feel as isolated and you think, yes, I've got this challenge, except everybody has their challenges. This is just what mine looks like.
[00:22:38] Uri Schneider: Good transition to the Bar Mitzvah speech.
[00:22:40] Mike Liben: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:41] Uri Schneider: So what, what was your memory of that Bar Mitzvah speech? We said we would tell that story.
[00:22:44] Mike Liben: Sure. So, you know, um.
[00:22:48] Uri Schneider: Because there's the Bar mitzvah speech. Yeah. And then there's the meeting afterwards where you said, I think I'm done with therapy.
[00:22:52] Mike Liben: So y So truthfully, you know, the speech I remember quite well the meeting afterwards.
I don't have as clear a memory of it. We'll talk about it. Um, the Bar Mitzvah speech itself, we worked on that for a long time. 'cause that was the component of it that gave me the most anxiety. I, I, I knew I'd be able to do the Torah and the haftorah, 'cause there's almost an element of like, musicality to it.
chanting to it. I knew that was gonna be smoother.
[00:23:20] Uri Schneider: And just to set the scene, we're talking black tie affair, a lot of adults, A lot of your parents friends.
[00:23:25] Mike Liben: Exactly. And everybody was already in the tuxedos. It was a havdalah service. So like, everybody's ready for the party. Probably, I don't know, it looked like a thousand people there.
Probably 300 people there. Um, and you plan this, you know. This is something you work on and you plan for years, or you know,
more than a year. Um, and my parents asked me if I wanted to do a speech. I said I did. Um, and then me and your dad, we got to work on it and we wrote it. It was only, I mean, it was a few pages. Um. We wrote it probably six months in advance. You know, this was probably the most worked on Bar Mitzvah speech of all time presidents have given speeches that had less, uh, that had less preparation and brain power involved.
Um, so we wrote it months in advance. We practiced it over and over and over again. I remember we spent weeks practicing it, whatever. I'd be there on Wednesdays. That is what we did, and we put slashes into all. All the places that I would insert a pause. We worked on, you know, cer on certain sounds were gonna be problem areas we worked on, smoothing them out, you know, all the ways to set me up for success.
And then, uh, also, I don't know whose idea it was, but we thought it'd be a good idea for your dad to stand up there on stage with me to help me through it. Um. And so the big day comes, you know, everybody's out there, they're all watching. Um, and I get started and, you know, I don't know when, but pretty quickly the wheels came off
the fluency there was, it went, um, and it was very clear. 'cause like once it got to a certain point, at that point in my life, there was really no coming back. Like I was in a mode where this was just gonna be bumpy and this is just what it was. Um, and I remember your dad being up there standing right next to me and like really earnestly trying to help in whatever way he could, like reminding me where I was supposed to pause, slow down what the techniques were, which is exactly why, why, you know, he very considerately agreed to be there because I'm sure that was not a usual request, but it was very kind of him, uh, put, put himself in the spot.
[00:25:52] Uri Schneider: Did you want him, did you want him there or did you find it at the beginning intrusive or overbearing?
[00:25:56] Mike Liben: I wanted him there beforehand. Um, but then when like. I was just gonna get through this thing any anyway I could at that moment, in that moment. Then I remember thinking, you know what, this isn't serving any purpose.
We're just gonna get through this thing. Um, and, uh, and we did, um, well, you gave him a little, uh, I, you know, rumor has that I gave him a little nudge that, you know, I got this thank this's on me and I'm gonna get through it whatever way I can. Um, and, uh, you know. Uh, the truth of the matter is when you're a kid, you don't think about this, but from his point of view, I, I'm sure that that was a hard moment.
Well, maybe not, but he's up there in front of everybody ostensibly, to help this thing go smoothly and more fluent, and it didn't. So, I'm. I've always wondered how he felt in that moment, and I'll ask him one day.
[00:26:57] Uri Schneider: Um,
[00:26:57] Mike Liben: but uh,
[00:26:59] Uri Schneider: I can share the folklore in our family. Yeah, sure. But what was your experience?
[00:27:02] Mike Liben: Okay, so my experience was exactly the way I described before.
It was pretty hard in the moment, a little painful as I was getting through it, except I knew that the message got across. The words got out.
[00:27:13] Uri Schneider: Do you remember what the message was?
[00:27:14] Mike Liben: I do. It was about challenges. It was about fences and it was about how like, we got
it.
Can you get it? I don't know if I could give it verbatim, except I remember that.
You know, it, it was this story of Jacob and Esau, I think, um, and about how they were coming back together after having this horrible. Rift in their relationship. Um, and that was a challenge in Jacob's life and how he navigated, do I have the story right?
[00:27:42] Uri Schneider: I think, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe says that when you get to fences Yes.
In a lot of ways of confronting a fence.
[00:27:47] Mike Liben: Yeah. You can go around, you can go under, you can go over it. But you know, I think it was also, you can go through it and um,
[00:27:54] Uri Schneider: and then you said. This is my fence. Yes. And this is what I'm doing about it. Exactly. What's your fence and what are you doing about it?
[00:28:03] Mike Liben: Yes, exactly.
Pretty
[00:28:04] Uri Schneider: powerful for bar mitzvah, boy.
[00:28:06] Mike Liben: Yeah. And look, as I said, you know, your dad was critical in the formulating of the
actual, kind of
like word goes back to
substance.
Yeah. Yes. Um, and so, um, that, and it was clear to me the message, you know. re-- really did get across, and it was one of the formative experiences I had when we heard from a lot of our family friends and our family afterwards about the poignancy of the experience for them.
That, that if the message is there, then the fluency and the style is really secondary and, and it was the first kind of true example that I
had of that in the real world, even though I'd always felt it.
[00:28:54] Uri Schneider: So it's powerful 'cause it was, it was an experience for you and it solidified what could be talked about.
Mm-hmm. But until you experience it and you get that feedback and you get through it and you feel it, and you stood there and you stay in the pocket, everything's collapsing. That's what I describing.
[00:29:06] Mike Liben: That's right. Collapsing pockets a really good way.
[00:29:07] Uri Schneider: Pocket is collapsing. I would run my own end zone to escape these, like, massive people chasing after me.
But, uh, but, but your ability to hang in the pocket there, deliver the message. And then people sending you this feedback. So the story goes, the way my father tells is, you show up two weeks later mm-hmm. Uh, to the office, and you're like, I think we're done. I think we're done. And my dad's like, WW Why is that?
Yeah. You know, you seem to still be stuttering and like your dad's still invested in, you know, supporting you. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, well, you know, it wasn't perfect, but I think I got my point across and. And you pulled out like some envelopes of letters that people sent to you. 'cause you said like, this is my fence and this is what I'm doing about it.
Like, well, what's your fence and what are you doing about it? And people wrote you letters like, you know, not just a check for the mazal tov on the bar mitzvah, but like, Hey, I had been outta touch with my mom, or I'd fallen out with my brother and because of your talk, like I confronted that and I like did something.
And I came back together and I repaired a relationship. And you said, you know, Phil, I think that, um. It wasn't perfect, but it didn't need to be. And, and they heard the message and if you had given the talk or anyone else gave the talk, they might not have sent those letters.
[00:30:19] Mike Liben: Right.
[00:30:20] Uri Schneider: I think it had something to do with me.
[00:30:21] Mike Liben: Yeah. And I think what really resonated with people and will always resonate with people, is more so than I had this challenge in my life and I no longer do. That's right. And here's how you can do the same is. I have this challenge in my life. Here's what I'm doing about it now. And yeah, it's not perfect except we do what we have to regardless.
[00:30:45] Uri Schneider: Yeah. I heard a speech, I wish I could pull up his name, I'm blanking out. He lost his son. And people said to him, you know, you gotta get on with it. Get on with it. Move on. You can't stay in the sorrow and in the loss. And he said, I don't wanna get on with it. I don't ever forget my son.
Right.
I don't ever wanna forget the blessings.
I don't wanna be ungrateful for everything I have, but I don't ever wanna let go and forget. He said, I want to get on with it. Yeah. With it, not without it not passing on, not moving on past it, but like with it moving into life
[00:31:17] Mike Liben: and, and it sounds like. Bringing it along with him.
[00:31:20] Uri Schneider: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So your dad, big shoes to fill.
Yeah, sure. Tzell travel was like cast a big shadow. Yeah. Tzell means shadow also. I didn't know that. I know that's not the root of the name of the, it's not of the company, but your dad and his all caps and just his presence and his relationships. Yeah. And his core, you know, guiding principles. So what was it like, kind of like.
Well first you went into, into being an attorney. Yes. You were in the DA office
[00:31:50] Mike Liben: Exactly. For 11 years. Yeah.
[00:31:51] Uri Schneider: Tell us about that. You were fighting to, uh, protect people who are victims of domestic violence. Yeah. And others.
[00:31:57] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:31:58] Uri Schneider: So picturing you with this stutter, there were probably a couple different avenues you could have chosen.
[00:32:02] Mike Liben: Absolutely.
[00:32:02] Uri Schneider: Then being in the courtroom. Yep. Then we'll get to Tzell travel and Chai. Sure. But like, when did you decide you wanted to be an attorney and, and what did you have to do to kind of like, earn that spot? It's not, it's not a, it's not an easy position for anyone. Yeah. It's not, uh, a lack of competition for that position.
And then you've got this, this speech thing that you gotta navigate.
[00:32:26] Mike Liben: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, so, uh, uh, pretty early on in life, I knew. Being an attorney was, was one of the probable careers. I always enjoyed arguing and, um, in a respectful and constructive way. I always en enjoyed debating. Um, and so that was a pretty natural
path in that regard. Um, the fluency
[00:32:56] Uri Schneider: seems natural
to you? Because I think most people hearing that would say another, another paradoxical statement. It seemed like natural for me that I wanted to get into being an attorney and using words to debate ideas.
[00:33:06] Mike Liben: Yeah, no, that's true. But it just always.
[00:33:10] Uri Schneider: That would be like
your dad saying he wanted to compete in like sprinting
[00:33:13] Mike Liben: in the marathon.
[00:33:16] Uri Schneider: He was a marathon guy. He was an ultra marathon guy, but he was not, you know, a sprinter.
[00:33:20] Mike Liben: That's right. You know, um, there were certain, you know, look, let's not say there are no fields that I might have. Been disqualified from, because of my fluency, I probably couldn't be a phone sex operator, but other than, so, so there might have been dis so there might have been disqualification somewhere.
Okay. But it, but it, knowing you wasn't being,
[00:33:41] Uri Schneider: I, I didn't even see
that coming, but I'm not sure that was actually something you were aspiring to, but let's just
keep moving.
It was
not on the list towards law,
[00:33:48] Mike Liben: but the point is that there might be that the law, I think because at the end of the day, I believe in the importance of, of substance over style.
I think it would surprise people to hear that in the courtroom. Really, substance is critical. At the end of the day, you know, people have a conception of trial attorneys as extremely flashy, you know, extremely smooth. And the truth of the matter is the best ones are the ones that are the most prepared.
And the ones who put the time in and the ones who have focused on the substance. And you know that learning that through experience while I, while I always believed it was the case, but, but getting up in front of people, uh, trying cases. Arguing legal issues in front of, in front of judges was, was, was further proof that at the end of the day, the substance is what's gonna carry the day.
[00:35:01] Uri Schneider: There's a conversation I've heard told of you speaking to the DA to kind of just assure him, or, yeah, it was this very,
[00:35:08] Mike Liben: it was the last
round of the interviews you meet with the DA yourself. It
was,
[00:35:11] Uri Schneider: you know, you gotta be very careful in interviews these days. Yeah. Right. And here you're in all of all places.
You're the DA Yeah. In, in, in Brooklyn. So what was that conversation? What did he say to you and what was your response?
[00:35:23] Mike Liben: So he said, um, he said something along the lines. It was a prior DA, not the current DA. Um, it was something along the lines of. You know, we're very excited to have you here and we know you deal with the speech issue, so if you want to be assigned to a place where that is less of an issue for you, where you're doing more writing, uh, we, we'd be happy to do that.
And I essentially said, absolutely not. I would like to go the path that you know, that all the new ADA's take. Because at the end of the day, I think what I have to say will trump however I'm saying it. And he said something along the lines of, well, you clearly don't lack for confidence, so we'll go with that.
[00:36:13] Uri Schneider: Wow. What was the hardest thing that you had to do in that, in that stint?
[00:36:17] Mike Liben: So like most things, early experiences are the hardest when you're getting even a modicum of comfort. So you know, one of the new things you had. One of the early things you have to do, what, when you start at the DA's office, is you have to, you have to, you have to, to, do what's called the calendar, which means in like the, in like the initial court rooms where all the cases are heard prior to trial, you, uh, you, you need to give a quick status update on every single case on the calendar that day, and there could be.
80 to a hundred cases on in a given day, and your job is to give a quick, short and like to the point, update to the judge about what's going on in the case. Um, and you do that for like eight hours.
Um,
and so on the very first time I had to do it. I got up to the podium, set the scene. There's all the people who have their cases on that day.
All the defendants are in the pews behind you. They are all in court until their case is heard and they cannot leave. So they want this to go quickly. The judge wants this to go quickly. The defense attorneys want this to go quickly. Everybody wants to, and w wa wa wants this to go quickly, and the very first thing that you have to do is you have to put your name on the record that you'd
say,
uh,
[00:38:02] Uri Schneider: you better not forget your name
[00:38:04] Mike Liben: exactly.
Better not forget your name. Uh, you know, the very first thing you say is, uh, uh, assistant district attorney.
M--
M-- M--, so you can see how it went. Uh, Michael Liben, for the people, your Honor. And uh, the very first time I had to do it, it probably took me two to three minutes. Um, and the judge was like... I don't think the judge knew what to do. Everybody in the courtroom was like, what is going on here? Um, and because I think the judge was staring down a, the judge was staring down a 16 hour day, so it should have been a seven hour day.
Um, but you know, as it always is, that first time was very hard. And there were, you know, the, the, there were a few hard days like that, but. After a few months, the judges started preferring I was there because the overall efficiency and the overall, the overall content was gonna be stronger and
quicker.
[00:39:31] Uri Schneider: So not only did you make it, but you became the preferred.
[00:39:33] Mike Liben: Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
[00:39:35] Uri Schneider: Above your peers. Yeah. Amazing. Then when did you transition? What was the initiative on your part to transition from the career? As a prosecuting DA office? Yeah. To the entrepreneurship and leading high travel.
[00:39:50] Mike Liben: So I always wanted to do something entrepreneurial. I mean, that's obviously a big part of our family.
Um, something I inherited fro- fro- fro- fro- from my dad.
[00:40:14] Uri Schneider: Uh, so we talked about your dad's physique and his personality. Yes. But just for those that don't know. Oh, yeah. So over 40 years ago, he buys a small travel agency.
[00:40:21] Mike Liben: Yeah. So he bought one third of a small travel agency in the, in the,
la-- la-- late 1970s, which, um, only served the New York to Tel Aviv market. And over the next 40 years he turned it into the largest agency in New York and one of the largest in the country,
[00:41:02] Uri Schneider: and no longer just New York Tel Aviv,
[00:41:04] Mike Liben: no longer just New York Tel Aviv. You know, they did everything everywhere.
They had, you know, they had a, they had a lot of offices around the country, um, and
[00:41:14] Uri Schneider: self-made man self,
[00:41:16] Mike Liben: completely
self-made, completely self-made, um, you know, really a story that you do not hear that. Often
[00:41:25] Uri Schneider: Barry Liben. Yes. Google it. L-I-B-E-N. Yes. As impressive as Mike is, his father's story is also something extremely inspiring and it's
it's amazing in his way.
Yes. His legacy lives on and we're approaching six years, but, uh, good. So his, his entrepreneurial example
[00:41:41] Mike Liben: Yes, exactly.
[00:41:41] Uri Schneider: You feel was always there in the family Yeah. And something you wanted to, to follow in some way.
[00:41:45] Mike Liben: Yes. And uh, and in. 2021. Um,
my sisters got together and we decided we were going to start a new travel company,
[00:42:06] Uri Schneider: and each of you had been doing other things. Each of us had our own totally, totally, totally lined up with travel agency business. You coming from the prosecuting attorney's office?
[00:42:14] Mike Liben: That's correct. I had a sister who, yeah,
[00:42:16] Uri Schneider: sister was a social worker.
[00:42:17] Mike Liben: Exactly. My other sister used to have a, a, a retail clothing store in New Jersey. So really travel oriented. But you know, the truth is, we grew up around the travel business. We had, we had wonderful relationships in the travel business. And th th th that was the most critical thing that, that w that we needed it because it is very much a people business.
[00:42:45] Uri Schneider: Um, and so what was your dad's credo? What was he known for?
[00:42:48] Mike Liben: It was all about family, you know, he treated everybody like they were a member of the family, for better or for worse, which means you got the best of it with him. And you got the not so good stuff too.
Um,
[00:42:58] Uri Schneider: everybody got the all caps
[00:43:00] Mike Liben: correct.
[00:43:00] Uri Schneider: Shorthand messages. No. Holding back, no subtlety.
[00:43:03] Mike Liben: Exactly. And what also set him apart is he treated, uh. Everybody in his organization like they were family,
[00:43:15] Uri Schneider: top to bottom. Em, every
employee.
[00:43:17] Mike Liben: Exactly. If you were the vice president, you are one of the messengers. Regardless you got treated like family and you, you were treated fairly.
Um, and so those, the, those are the types of things that we have brought to, to our venture, Chai travel, um, and, and. And, and in our few years it has proven true that if that, uh, th that th that th the, the, the, those things still matter to
people.
[00:43:54] Uri Schneider: So what are, what's, what's your position in the market? Like what type of travel does Chai travel do?
[00:44:01] Mike Liben: Yeah. So if I'm looking for, we do a little
bit of everything. We do leisure travel. If you wanna take your family on vacation. We do. We do, we do. We do corporate travel as well, and, and, and we do a, a air amount of entertainment travel. We have. We have a great team that does that. Which is uh, which is a a, which is
a- a- a- a- a- a l- l- lot of touring musicians use us to do their travel and logistics.
[00:45:06] Uri Schneider: I'm gonna detour with a quick analogy. Mm-hmm. I wanna dive into like what was happening right there. Okay. Inside Michael's head. Inside Michael's body. Yeah. I flew a couple days ago. Yeah. There was more turbulence on that flight than anything I've ever flown before. That's a funny, there was another time your dad was very helpful because we, we were leaving the National Stuttering Association conference in Florida.
We were due to come back to LaGuardia. The weather wasn't right. Mm-hmm. We circled a little bit and then we ended up landing in Norfolk, Virginia, and we had to spend Shabbat there. That's an amazing story in and of itself. Yeah. But figuring that all out and of course. All caps, short messages are going back and forth with your dad, like family and, um, but I'm just thinking like when you're stuttering like that
[00:45:45] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:45:46] Uri Schneider: When do you sign to reroute?
[00:45:48] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:45:48] Uri Schneider: And like take a stop over or an unplanned exit. Yeah. You know? Sure. Or when do you say like, Nope, we've got our flight map, we are going down this road. Yeah. As long as it takes. And what's the turbulence? The, we see the physical on the lips. Yeah. But I'm curious, like on the inside, if you're like, okay, just buckle up, everything's going to be just fine, you know?
Like, yeah, like the front of like an 18 wheeler has like that cushion seat. So like it would be a rough ride if you didn't have that. Yeah. But like you just kind of hang in and like, yeah. All right.
[00:46:13] Mike Liben: Yeah, so for me, I mean, I rarely change the flight plan. Sometimes I do. But you would not wanna fly on my plane.
I don't think it would. I would've be a great pilot 'cause I would just head right for the turbulence and stay in it as long, as long as it took to get through it. Um,
[00:46:28] Uri Schneider: doing
hard things.
[00:46:29] Mike Liben: Yeah. But, uh, you know, there are times in which I say, okay, you know, there is a. There is an alternate way to approach this.
Um, and you know, what is happening in my head at the time? Usually, I'm just thinking about the next thing that I'm gonna say.
[00:46:45] Uri Schneider: How does it come up in travel? Like what does it do for you? What does it do to you in running a business and leading a business?
[00:46:51] Mike Liben: Yeah. The truth of the matter is it really is not a huge factor.
Um,
[00:46:55] Uri Schneider: do you take the
DA's advice on like, let other people be front facing and deal with a lot of talking and you just stay behind a scene or,
[00:47:03] Mike Liben: you know. Um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the answer to that is no. You know, I lead our w our, we we our weekly and our monthly meetings. Um. I'm out in front helping people solve the problems that need to be solved. Um, and at the same time, for a lot of other reasons, there are people on our team that are really good at what they do w way better than I will be at it. And I allow those people to do those things. Um, because, you know, WW whether I'm fluent or not very fluent doesn't mean that I'm the best person to, so to solve certain problems in my organization, and that's why we have a wonderful team.
[00:48:12] Uri Schneider: What, what has stuttering taught you or emboldened in your leadership or dealing with entrepreneurship?
[00:48:20] Mike Liben: Yeah, I, you know, I think it has. Given me a unique amount of experience and, and, and
perspective in approaching things that are hard in dealing with issues that come up. And also I think it has provided me with a lot of, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of, uh.
Empathy for, for working with people who are having their own issues. Because when you run an organization, you, you, you know, all, all it is, is people and, and people have their own problems in their lives and a huge part of properly running an organization is helping people with w with all the problems that they're having in their lives, in whatever way that we can.
[00:49:29] Uri Schneider: What's been the biggest challenge in taking Hide where it's at today?
[00:49:33] Mike Liben: Um, you know, it's interesting. We are, we went into the family business without a business, so we started this from scratch. Our dad was a, is was a legend in the business. Uh, the company that he ran is a. Is a gr is a gr, gr is a great company and it still exists.
We had to start our own thing from scratch.
[00:50:00] Uri Schneider: Am I pronouncing it right? Chai (kh-ai) Travel
[00:50:03] Mike Liben: Y. So there are multiple pronunciations, a little bit like Tzell. Uh, you know, we say Chai (kh-ai), we say Chai (ch-ai), just whatever works for as long as they're talking
about us.
[00:50:13] Uri Schneider: Depends if you wanna have tea or have a l'chaim.
[00:50:15] Mike Liben: Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Okay. Um. And so, you know, we really need to start this from scratch. And, and regardless of what your last name is, regardless of what you have available to you, to start something truly from the ground up has a lot of challenges along the way. Um, and that has been the case, but we've really, we've, we've, we've re, we've re, re, we've really come a long way and we're excited about the next couple years.
[00:50:48] Uri Schneider: Looking back, what's one that you weren't sure you were gonna get through and looking back, you can like say like, wow, we, we pulled through that. Yeah. So we had this breakthrough, like,
[00:50:56] Mike Liben: yeah. So n-- n-- n-- not to be too repetitive, but it's really about the people.
And what we were not sure of was, would we be able to, to sell the key people that we needed, we needed to attract to work with us on our vision and on, you know, this, this, this
this,
this,
this newer thing that wasn't as established. Um, we really didn't know if we were gonna be able to do that. We thought we could. And we have pro. We have pro, pro, we have pro, pro proven that we can, but th- th- th- there was certainly a time in which we weren't sure we'd be able to.
[00:52:06] Uri Schneider: What's your dream? Five years forward?
What do you want sell to look like? Or excuse me, what do you want
try to look like?
[00:52:12] Mike Liben: Um, I would like it to look a lot like it does right now, just a little bit larger.
[00:52:20] Uri Schneider: Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. What other questions or what didn't I ask that you would've wanted me to ask?
[00:52:26] Mike Liben: Uh.
I'm curious to hear what y what y what your family's version of the Bar Mitzvah speech story is.
'cause you alluded to it, but you didn't say
[00:52:36] Uri Schneider: legendary. Yeah. To me it's the quintessential example of like my father standing up there, my version of the story and, you know, corroborate, or correct me if. You wanted him there. It wasn't that he was imposing or that he was like,
[00:52:54] Mike Liben: no, a hundred percent. I wanted him
[00:52:55] Uri Schneider: hovering and overstepping the bounds.
Absolutely. Of where, and once things got rocky, you know, there wasn't a need. His his presence, you didn't need him. You could stand there on your own. He was an accessory. He was a supportive presence to a degree. But once the speech, as you said, went off the rails in terms of fluency, but it stayed on the track mm-hmm.
Of where you wanted to go with the message. Okay. So. At the moment that you ask him to go off the stage or, or give him a little elbow, however, it was, it was transmitted. I think my mother was mortified. Mm-hmm. She felt like he had failed you. Mm-hmm. Like, I think that as empathetic and supportive and value centered, as my father is in the work and my mom is in her way and and understands the work, there is a feeling of like, if someone's really stuttering full force, like you sort of did let him down.
[00:53:49] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:53:50] Uri Schneider: You know, and so there was that, there was that feeling. And I think all of us feel that like, uh, I had it yesterday. I ran an offsite for a financial firm and like while it was happening, the messier things got the more important it was to have those messy conversations.
Mm-hmm. But there's also this feeling like, am I gonna lose? Is everything gonna go off the rails? Right. Are we gonna be able to get this back together again? Yeah. Are we gonna go over the edge? And so I think seeing people go through hard things, you can't, you can't spare people going through hard things.
[00:54:21] Mike Liben: No.
[00:54:22] Uri Schneider: But I think as a coach or as a therapist or as a guide, you always wanna know, am I pushing the athlete to the edge and beyond, or am I like abusive? Right? Yeah. Um, is it, is, is giving my kid a license? To quit therapy. Is that like negligence or That's actually empowering and giving them agency.
[00:54:40] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:54:40] Uri Schneider: And that dance. So to me the story is, is is that, 'cause my father quickly pivoted from his initial thought that he also failed you to realizing, you know what my role is to, is really to give the person the hope and the confidence until they have it themselves. Yeah. And once the person has it for themselves, they're independent.
Yeah. You step back. Yeah. And you let them shine with their own light. But if they need some light, if they're feeling like they're drowning or they're in the darkness, you're there to give some light until they take it for themselves.
[00:55:12] Mike Liben: Yeah.
I think that's a hundred percent right. Um, and you know, I think from the beginning of that experience through to the end, it was it.
Became a huge, a huge source of strength for me. Um, and I think that is how everybody ended up feeling about it at the end of the day.
[00:55:32] Uri Schneider: Yeah. And I can't tell you, even though it's not clear in your mind, the version of the story that I tell mm-hmm. I must have told.
North of 250 times. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's, it's extremely inspiring and it's also counterintuitive because I think whether it's stuttering or as you said, I think, you know, it's not that it's something from the past and whatever adversity we're facing, things that have been with us for a long time, or usually they stick with us if we have anger issues.
Yeah. If we have health issues for one reason or another, if we have, uh, attentional issues, executive functioning issues, whatever they are. They're gonna be there to some degree or another for most people for a long time. And so seeing you and how you, how you roll with it, it's counterintuitive. 'cause a lot of people still think there's like this, fix it.
Right. If we just, if we just practice enough
mm-hmm.
It'll be gone. You'll talk like everybody else.
[00:56:23] Mike Liben: Exactly. And then life will be so much better.
[00:56:25] Uri Schneider: So what would you say is like the biggest misnomer or the biggest, um, misconception people have? And, and, and, and how do you wanna set the record straight? Maybe there are parents that are listening.
Maybe there are school aged kids that are. If they're in therapy having a great experience. Yeah. But wondering what they could do in life, or they're having a hellish experience with somebody telling 'em to tap their foot on the floor.
Right.
Yeah. Um, and they're dreaming, like, you know, once upon a time I wanted to do debate once upon a time I wanted to be an attorney.
Once upon a time I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I don't think it's for me, maybe I should do like accounting. Right. Nothing against accounting,
but
[00:56:54] Mike Liben: yeah, I think
so.
[00:56:56] Uri Schneider: Misnomers, setting the record straight. And what would you wanna say to these young people?
[00:57:00] Mike Liben: Yeah, so I think the largest misnomer is again, that.
Because there is this challenge, because there is this dis fluency, it is automatically disqualifying from doing anything because I really do not believe that that is the case.
Um, what
[00:57:24] Uri Schneider: second thing is, yeah, what would you want, what would you think would be helpful? It's like setting the record straight.
[00:57:28] Mike Liben: Yeah.
[00:57:29] Uri Schneider: How to, how to, how to view this. Whether you're that young person. Yeah. A parent, a teacher.
[00:57:33] Mike Liben: Yeah.
I think you touched on something, and I think it is true that you need to let your kid or your student really be the one who's deciding on the course with this kind of thing. Because there are times, and there were times when I didn't wanna be in speech therapy because I wanted to just do other things.
I wanted to hang out with my friends.
[00:57:57] Uri Schneider: You had better
things to do on Wednesday than
[00:57:58] Mike Liben: I wanted to hang out with
girls. Yeah, exactly. Like w what? W and those things. Were meaningful to me. And having the ability to say to my parents, I wanna prioritize these things, and them saying, okay, further gave the impression that this doesn't have to be at the forefront, because if you are hearing from your parents, from your teachers, from whoever it is that no, this needs to be your top priority, then you internalize that, that the flu, that the flu, that the flu, flu, that the fluency is what matters.
[00:58:38] Uri Schneider: Imagine Michael Liben could put a billboard in Times Square. What would it say?
[00:58:42] Mike Liben: Oh, you mean about anything?
[00:58:44] Uri Schneider: Yeah. Not, not advertising the agency.
[00:58:46] Mike Liben: Okay, fair enough. Um, um, uh, yeah, it, it would be substance is what matters. That's it.
[00:58:58] Uri Schneider: I'm thinking about like your anti substance abuse. You're all about the substance.
Yeah. All about the substance. No,
yeah, no, exactly.
That's fantastic. Any parting thoughts, parting words?
[00:59:07] Mike Liben: I just really appreciate this. This was great and it's, it's amazing and it was really good and um, you know, it's a reminder I gotta call your dad and say hello.
[00:59:14] Uri Schneider: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for coming.
[00:59:16] Mike Liben: Absolutely. Thank you.
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[00:59:17] Mike Liben: Thanks for listening to Transcending X. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who could benefit from it. If you want free tips to help you talk more, fear less, sign up at transcendingx.com/email Until next time, remember, tomorrow's breakthroughs start with what we do today. Let's keep talking.